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» Taizan-ha Honkyoku Set

Dean   


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Post #1

ADMINISTRATORS NOTE: THE LINK IN THIS POST HAS BEEN TEMPORARILY REMOVED PENDING AN INVESTIGATION REGARDING THE COPYRIGHT OF THE MATERIAL BEING OFFERED. THE LINK CAN BE RESTORED ONCE THIS MATTER IS CLEARED UP.


Available for a limited time.

If, with the information available via the internet through self-instruction or with the help of a teacher, one can attain the clarity that the practice of such Zen music engenders, then is it necessarily wrong to make public these 100 year old revisions of even older material? Some older schools of instruction have faded into obscurity with their claims to exclusivity. Would the tradition be compromised without direct and private transmission? In the past was it also a question of control and livelihood?Similar notations done by masters of calligraphy have been sold in the past through shakuhachi stores. You can currently buy old Araki Kodo scores from a master in Japan via his online shop.

To me it seems more in the spirit of Zen to make free the songs to attract as many who could benefit, and let the certified and historic connections be found to demonstrate its insights for what cost the heart truly knows. Thus will it multiply and survive and be of use to those who need it.

Similarly, some martial arts school masters and students railed against Bruce Lee for revealing its secrets to any Westerner who showed a pure interest. Now you can check out hundreds of technical books with the lessons of those arts, or free information on many websites. There seems to be a benefit to that openess. Good dojos still proliferate, teachers make their livings.

Would someone rather have this particular important school of spiritual Zen music discipline fade away in a couple of generations, hidden under a bushel, unavailable to the poor, shut out often from those who would benefit from it the most?

This freedom of information would ultimately enhance the tradition, I feel, rather than dilute it. Open the gate, open the door, that is, if you have no objection?

This post has been edited by Geoffrey: Apr 6 2011, 01:58 PM
Reason for edit: Copyright investigation


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Sunbow   


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Post #2

Thanks for posting. I but a beginner, but I can't help collecting songs in hopes of the ability to play them with time. I agree with your open source philosophy. The more that is in the open, the more there will be a need for good teachers and traditions.


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x moran   


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Post #3

QUOTE(Dean @ Apr 4 2011, 10:21 AM) *
Available for a limited time.


This represents a lot of work and Dean should be greatly appreciated for the tedious work of scanning and sharing these pieces.

This post has been edited by tootieflutie58: Apr 10 2011, 10:21 AM


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Mark Pimenta   


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Post #4

Very interesting, thanks

This post has been edited by Mark Pimenta: Apr 6 2011, 07:34 AM


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x moran   


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Post #5

QUOTE


Does any one know of a reliable place online for me to upload mp3s? I used to put them on my old web site, but I since eliminated the expense of maintaining one.

This post has been edited by tootieflutie58: Apr 10 2011, 10:22 AM


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cloudsounds   


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Post #6

QUOTE
Does any one know of a reliable place online for me to upload mp3s? I used to put them on my old web site, but I since eliminated the expense of maintaining one.

I see more and more people using www.soundcloud.com


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x moran   


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Post #7

I firmly assert that honkyoku documents which are pointed to from this link are within the Public Domain and part of the Creative Commons.

ADMIN NOTE: LINK REMOVED DUE TO COPYRIGHT ISSUE

Please contact me through the blog commenting system

Thank you,

Chris Moran
Reason for edit: Copyright investigation


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Geoffrey   


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Post #8

QUOTE(x moran @ Apr 7 2011, 12:41 AM) *
I firmly assert that honkyoku documents which are pointed to from this link are within the Public Domain and part of the Creative Commons.


Please contact me through the blog commenting system

Thank you,

Chris Moran



I have been provided with scans that illustrate that the document that Dean has provided for download may in fact be protected by international copyright. The content of the document (the actual piece) is old enough that it is probably part of the creative commons. However, the download itself appears to be an exact scan from a "rendering" of the piece that was done in 1972. In essence, it is an identical copy of a document that carries the Japanese equivalent of a common law copyright. I've seen the scans side by side and there is no question that this download is a scan of this protected document. The issue of whether the content can be copyrighted is something outside of my current understanding. But, since the document is written in calligraphy, I suppose it can be argued that the artistic individuality of this document can be legitimately copyrighted. I hope I'm being clear here. For example, if an artist in this country were to copy out a book of Shakespeare's sonnets, but they did it by hand using an old English style of calligraphy and then published the work as a piece of interpretive art, then if someone were to make scans of that book and then put them on the internet, it would likely be a real copyright infringement. Shakespeare isn't copyrighted, but the artist's work is. That is what we are talking about here as far as I can tell.

Having said that, I should add that I know virtually nothing about the more esoteric aspects of copyright law. I don't really know if an interpretation of a piece of art can be legally copyrighted. However, because there is legitimate doubt around this, I'm asking folks on the Flute Portal not to share this particular download. If anyone can present me with clear, irrefutable evidence (in terms that the layman can understand) that convinces me that an interpretation cannot be copyright protected, then I'll change my decision.

This post has been edited by tootieflutie58: Apr 10 2011, 10:23 AM


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Geoffrey   


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Post #9

Chris,

I should also add that the document on your blog that you linked to appears to be this exact same scan that is in question. In light of that I have removed the link to your blog.

Hopefully, this issue will become clear to me in time, but until then I must ask that members don't link to these materials from the Flute Portal.



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x moran   


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Post #10

QUOTE(Geoffrey @ Apr 7 2011, 08:37 AM) *
Chris,

I should also add that the document on your blog that you linked to appears to be this exact same scan that is in question. In light of that I have removed the link to your blog.

Hopefully, this issue will become clear to me in time, but until then I must ask that members don't link to these materials from the Flute Portal.


Basically its a lot of hot air blown by a self-appointed authority who won't even use his real name when discussing the issue.

Shakuhachidom is rife with jealousy and aquisitiveness which may seem counterintuitive for an instrument that is supposed have strong spiritual roots, but it's the reality of the situation. A real shame.

No sweat on our my end, Geoffrey, I'm sorry that there is the appearance of any trouble. The trouble was imagined by an insecure personality who feels the need to control others, all in the name of preserving something they have no entitlement to anyway.

I'm very pleased that you've invited shakuhachi people to the forum. We'll do our best to keep things non-confrontational.

This post has been edited by x moran: Apr 9 2011, 09:09 PM


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Geoffrey   


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Post #11

QUOTE(x moran @ Apr 9 2011, 08:52 PM) *
Basically its a lot of hot air blown by a self-appointed authority who won't even use his real name when discussing the issue.

Shakuhachidom is rife with jealousy and aquisitiveness which may seem counterintuitive for an instrument that is supposed have strong spiritual roots, but it's the reality of the situation. A real shame.

No sweat on our my end, Geoffrey, I'm sorry that there is the appearance of any trouble. The trouble was imagined by an insecure personality who feels the need to control others, all in the name of preserving something they have no entitlement to anyway.

I'm very pleased that you've invited shakuhachi people to the forum. We'll do our best to keep things non-confrontational.



I suppose that it is human nature that whenever groups of people gather with a shared interest, there will inevitably be disagreement. I know nothing of the shakuhachi world or the politics that may exist there, but I have a vivid imagination wink.gif. Wherever there is "Tradition" (note the capital "T"), there will be different definitions and the subsequent division that comes with them. As I say, the information provided to me seems to throw doubt on the appropriateness of sharing that specific scan for the reasons that I outlined. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the content of the document is public domain, and I have no opinion regarding the motives of the member who has brought it to my attention.

The suggestion that I would offer to anyone who wants to share material that they know to be in the public domain, is to do a personal interpretation. Literally sit down and grab your brush and "paint" your own personal rendering. Then scan that and share it. If the content is truly not copyrighted, this approach would remove the legal aspect of the issue entirely. It would be your rendering and not someone else's.

Under ordinary circumstances I would not even get involved in disagreements like this, but because it is a public web site, I have to be a stickler about obeying the laws of the land. Even if there would never be any real-world consequences of allowing questionable copyright issues to exist on the site, I try to adhere to the spirit of the law. Essentially, as a website owner I have to cover my butt smile.gif.

However, I hope this won't discourage the new members from the shakuhachi world who have found their way to this site. You are all very welcome here and I'm very excited about the future of the shakuhachi forum.



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x moran   


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Post #12

QUOTE(Geoffrey @ Apr 10 2011, 08:50 AM) *
but because it is a public web site, I have to be a stickler about obeying the laws of the land. Even if there would never be any real-world consequences of allowing questionable copyright issues to exist on the site, I try to adhere to the spirit of the law. Essentially, as a website owner I have to cover my butt smile.gif.

However, I hope this won't discourage the new members from the shakuhachi world who have found their way to this site. You are all very welcome here and I'm very excited about the future of the shakuhachi forum.


Big 10-4 on all that. I run a couple of web sites, very different beasts, but when you're trying to provide an open service the way you do, threats of copyright suits are just a drag. Some people insist on poisoning the well.

There would be other more productive ways of approaching the issue, such as purchasing current copyrighted sets from the source (in this case Myoan-ji temple which has very little interest if any in "marketing") and reselling complete sets over here at cost plus shipping and handling fees. Now that would be a worthy service. I think complete sets run less than $150.

Even then most new people to shakuhachi just want a taste of what the real stuff is like. At some point, I may have the first 4 or 5 pieces of the Taizan Ha ready in "purified form" soon. That would give people a taste. Most people just want "Choshi." But they should experience a couple of other 'beginners' pieces, too, and have a few tips on how to interpret the notation. Not lessons, just tips. Just to get their feet wet a bit to see if they want to really commit to serious shakuhachi study. Taizan Ha remains the only shakuhachi school not to commercialize itself and will never be officially commercialized, I believe. It's not "performance music" like Kinko and Tozan and Yokuyama (KSK) style. It is traditional in approach and created as temple music, not show-biz music. It still takes a lot of hard study. Finding good, reliable teachers who actually have firm roots in the tradition is like looking for hen's teeth, rabbit horns and turtle fur.

But despite that, if new people want to have a taste of the experience, they should. They may find themselves helping to bring responsible Taizan Ha teaching to the USA. What a neat thing that would be.

Also, and I say this frequently: The works of Tokuyama Takashi-- the recordings and the book Take no Michi -- are the closest thing to Taizan Ha teaching that most people will ever see or need. The work that he has put together under the name of 'Tokuyama Honkyoku Kai' uses Taizan Ha style notation and is very useful for people
for people who want the real feel of real Japanese shakuhachi temple music and can't gain access to a teacher. If anyone on the Portal wants more info or would appreciate some recommendations they should post here. The book, complete sheet music and the available recorded work can all be purchased reasonably form shakuhachi.com. You can buy the sheet music, one piece at a time.

Thanks again, Geoffrey!


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