what is your take on this. Does it make a difference, good, bad, the same. Any opinions?

Honestly.. along as it plays well and is in tune I don't care..

Well, technically, as long as it plays well, who cares. But frankly, there are so many little subtle details that can only be incorporated into a flute by hand that the ones that are cranked out as if on an assembly line always seem to be lacking on some way.

Hand made for me. But that doesn't mean that the maker can't use modern tools and equipment to make his job easier. In fact, these tools and techniques make it easier to make better, more consistent flutes. But they will always need the fine tuning by hand.

The things that make a flute sound good and/or have a characteristic voice are created by a combination of the sound mechanism design, the Aspect Ratio (the length to bore ratio) and the inner surface of the bore. By "sound mechanism" I refer to the combination of the ramp, air channel (flue) and TSH (true sound hole) and the interrelationship between them.

Making the body of the flute can be done in any number of ways, and any competent woodworker can manage it with some basic knowledge. Whether this is achieved by hand carving or by high-tech automation doesn't really matter (in my opinion) as long as the body design comes out the way the maker planned. The one part that cannot be effectively completed by machine is the voicing of the flute (through the manipulation of the sound mechanism), and the tuning. You can get all the elements in place (router for the air channel, drill for the sound hole, etc.) but once they are created they need to be "tweaked"--sometimes extensively--and that is what separates a good flute from a so-so flute.

My own feeling is that technology makes flutes affordable. Flutes made using hand tools tend to be more expensive, generally speaking. Using machinery to reduce the grunt work allows the flute maker to focus on the important stuff and spare their sinews

I personally do not care how the flute is made as long as it looks good and sounds good. I do however care about how much they cost and this can be controlled through the use of machines.

I think flutes that are created using a more machined approach are usually more uniform and consistent. Not being a flute maker, I am just giving opinion, but while talking to several respected makers, they mentioned that the use of patterns and jigs along with high end machinery make their jobs a lot easier and allows them to make flutes that are affordable. I guess I just repeated in not as cool a way what Geoffrey just said. I should have just said I agree with G .

Mark

I agree with Geoffrey and Mark.

I also don't care how it's made as long as I know the flute maker is passionate about his work and wants to produce the best flute he can to honor that flute. I want mine made from someone who cares about the flute and where it came from and who loves it like I do.

If a flute is being manufactured only for the purpose of making money, I don't care how well it's made, I don't want it. The heart of the maker means a lot to me and how they show respect for the Native American flute.

Well, I do agree with G and Mark.

It is important to note that there is a difference between "Hand Crafted" ,which can absolutely be done using power tools. Machine made to me means putting a billet in a fixture, calling up a program on a CNC and htiing the green button. Once you go that route it seem to be purely a mercenary endeaver and the "art of the craft" is left aside.

As Geoffrey suggested, despite the use of power tools there is still a fair amount of the process that is done by hand, with hand tools, using power for the heavy removal.

As to completely hand carved, I have a ton of respect for anybody that goes that route. Regardless of the method, I do like to see the hand of the maker in the finished product.

Ed

Craftsmanship has always required tools, of some kind, since the stone age. To make more, or less, of one kind of tool over another, is quite silly. The craftsman decides what tool will accomplish the job to his specifications, and that is all that matters. Hand crafted workmanship is just as valid with power tools, as with hand tools, if the item is made one at a time.

Couldn't agree more. So far I've only bought from makers who I've also heard playing their creations. How can it be a love flute without love going into making it?




Having seen true craftsmen freehand "carve" recessed designs into doors using power tools I know what you mean. The tools are the means, not the skill itself. It reminds me of a story of a little boy visiting a sculptor and seeing nothing but a plain block of marble, then returning 6 months later to see a statue of a lion so life-like it scared him. The little boy asked the sculptor how he knew the lion was in the block of marble and the sculptor replied "I saw it in my heart".

Great question/topic. While I agree with what has been said thus far I think that completely "hand carved" flutes are a different instrument for several reasons.

Of course I should get my bias out of the way so for those who do not know I have made flutes for 20 years using just hand tools. Bit and brace to bore drawknife and block plane to shape and small knives and files to do the detail stuff. I had no teacher except the flute. Lots of trial and error and some very beautiful kindling

Took about three years to become consistent and proficient with the process which includes the gathering of wood, determining where the flute is in the wood, "listening" to see what type of saddle/bird needs to be made...
When I gather wood, usually one piece at a time, I take only what presents it self always leaving a gift in gratitude of and acknowledging the disruption of the lives dependent upon that tree/branch. Once the potential flute is cut and bored the use of hand tools allows a deliberate shaping of the body to follow the contour of the branch etc. For me using handtools (non-power) is slow and facilitates listening to what the wood wants to be. Consequently no two flutes are the same. They look different, feel (energetically) different, have different voices. Also my relationship with the wood(s) and those things that live in the wood(s) is strengthened. As inconsequential as some of this may seem it all becomes the flute.

I was quite resistent to working with power tools to make flutes but had to learn as this is the way most maker's build flutes now. I'll spare all the details of my learning (or trial and error and error and error and...)
Initially I had some thoughts about power tools that ,let's say, I now realize were out in left field...

The same deliberate, philosophical/(concious),creative approach to making flutes can be applied no matter which method is employed.

I am of the opinion that the divergence occurs with the finished flute. Could be that the market determines this more than anything but there is a unique one of a kind feel to handmade as compared to uniform "standard" feel to those made using power tools. I should say that power tools in my case refer to router and lathe.

Guess I got a little verbose only to agree...

I also would have to agree. I do use power tools in the crafting process. I do however finish the flute with hand tools. Block planes, scrapers and files. It's the most enjoyable part of crafting a flute to me. Well, that and when you get that really nice fundimental for the first time, from each peice of wood.

I also have been asked how I carve some of my fetishes. My reply is always the same, "I let my heart remove what is not supposed to be there and leave the rest."

It's hard not to fall in love with each flute that I craft. Sometimes when they leave, it's like letting go of my personal collection.

Anthony

I'm also a hands on maker, although not very detailed hand work, it does take many hours of tedious work to create a driftwood like appearance or create a drone flute with a stylistic tapered look.

I agree with Hawk and agree with everyone else, the end result should be something you almost hate to see leave your shop, but also you know the new owner will appreciate your labors and love their flute as much as you did in the creating of...
oh Anthony posted at the same time..great minds think alike

Hi Kally,
When folks ask me what is a good flute, these days I quote the Cadillac commercial
" when you turn it on, does it return the favor"?
There are pros and cons on both sides but the bottom line is the connection when a player puts that flute to his/her's lips and starts to play. At that point it matters little whether the flute was 90% machined or 100% hand made, it matters little if the art work on the flute would give DiVinci pause,it matters little if you paid $800 of $75, even the construction quality matters little if you and that flute have that "special" connection.
Kuz

If I understand the original question.... I think this person is asking whether a flute is better bored or split. At least this is what I think is being asked.
In this case, in my opinion, it depends on the maker and his design of the flute.
Let me explain.... Taking my flutes for instance.... I use a small blow hole. I prefer them for a couple of reasons. In order to get a smoother air displacement into the slowair chamber I do what I have called a v-notch cut. This extra step would not be able to be done if I bored out my flutes. I also use a sunken nest, although this would still be able to be done, it would leave sharp edges in the sound chamber if bored which could effect over all sound. The other thing is that I like to visually see the work that I have done clearly in and around the TSH, ramp, etc. this can't be accomplished when boring because you would have to do all this work from the outside of the flute. Oh, and lastely, I also like to smooth out the slowair chamber and sound chamber. This could not be accomplished well when boring.
So, when it comes to my own design, I can say that splitting would make a better flute than boring.

Hi Ed,
I too like to have control over the work in the sound hole which in fact I do. The sound hole on my flutes is round and I use small concave carving knives as well as files/sandpaper to shape it the way I think it needs to be.
I do not understand why you feel that the bore cannot be smoothed out when boring is the method of making hollow? This is easily accomplished with sandpaper attached to a dowel. Have I mis-understood you? Were you speaking of just your process?

Well, I bore out my Anasazi flutes, and I'll soon be boring out my NAFs as well. I haven't found any difficulty with smoothing the inside of a flute that has been bored-out. Lots of different approaches work quite well.

Geoffrey would you share some of the methods that you use or are aware of for smoothing the bore? Thanks...
Do you use a special bit on your lathe to bore? I have heard some folks refer to gun boring bits...

Yes, I was talking about my designs. I never said it was impossible to smooth out a bore when it has been bored. It is just a LOT easier (and personally I feel) more thorough when it is done when split. I like the bore to be super smooth. I don't even use sandpaper. I use a special fiber disk to smooth my bore halves. I am NOT knocking anyone elses methods at all. I want this to be perfectly clear. Everyone has there own way of doing things and the thoughts I have expressed are my personal opinions. If someone thinks that running a piece of sandpaper taped onto a steel rod attached to a drill works great or however they tackle smoothing a bored bore, then that is fine. However, I personally have never found a method to work as good once you have a whole bore to smooth.

I use what are commonly called "gun drills". These are specialized drills designed for deep bore drilling. They come in all shapes and sizes, but they are pretty big (mine are about 4 feet long). You have to have a special set up to use them: Either an actual gun drilling machine, built by companies that specialize in this sort of thing (very, very expensive) or you have to build your own machine to accommodate the process (which is what I did, with the help of a machinist friend). Either way, if you have a set up that is stable, accurate and will allow the use of many different drill sizes it is expensive. I was only able to manage it because it was done by a friend (who is a genius at his trade) for a huge discount.

As far as smoothing the bore goes: The drill cuts a pretty smooth bore to begin with, depending up how it is used and what type of wood is being bored. I polish the bore with medium-coarse steel wool wrapped around a metal rod and powered by a drill. Then I apply marine epoxy to the bore, polish with steel wool, apply another coat, polish, etc. using progressively finer steel wool. This makes for a glass-smooth finish inside.

I've been doing some reading about the physics of flutes and the behavior of air molecules in general. One of the things that I found out was that it is more important to have a smooth finish than it is to have a perfectly cut bore. For example: I drilled out some very soft, very figured Redwood and as an experiment I drilled it very aggressively. This had the effect of "tearing" the wood quite a bit. As a result, when I looked down the bore, the surface was rough looking...like a paved road with lots of little pot-holes. Not ideal, to my eye. However, after applying several coats of marine epoxy, it looked exactly the same in terms of pot-holes, but now everything (including the pot-holes) was as shiny as glass! I played the flute and it sounded great. This was consistent with what I had read: That having a "slippery" surface had more impact on the behavior of the air molecules than having a perfectly flush-cut. Not what I expected, I admit, but seemingly true. Most of my past objections to boring flutes was based on the fact that the process created micro-tears in some woods, making for a surface that was not a perfect cut (at least not as clean as a router bit, particularly with soft woods).

Some woods cut naturally smooth: I drilled out a Bubinga Anasazi flute, and when I held it up to the window and looked down the bore I could see clouds reflected in it! That is without any finish! Really nice.

I had some practice with bored flutes in the past. A few years ago I sub-contracted the boring of 50 flutes to a professional gun-drilling company, and I got to practice 50 different times with a wide variety of woods! Anyway, having made flutes both ways (split-seam and bored) I can say that one method does not produce superior flutes to another method. There are certain tasks that are easier to execute when you can get inside the bore, but it is by no means necessary. You simply use different techniques when you make bored flutes.

Ahhh, you'll be going to the Dark Side

If he's going to the "Dark Side" to make flutes I'm coming with!

Don't they have cookies?

Certainly we have cookies--dark chocolate.

Yes, the decision to embrace the dark side was really about longevity over commerce. Any maker can attest to the fact that pushing flute blanks through a router table for hours at a time, then standing over a lathe, shaping, sanding, etc.. can take its toll when done day after day, year after year. I found myself developing tendonitis and was accumulating an impressive collection of chronic muscle spasms. I seriously spend about $200 a month on massage therapy, just to keep myself functional.

So, after suffering for my art/livelihood for a number of years, I caved in and began exploring the drilling option. It's funny to hear it referred to as "the Dark Side" (though Greybeard is certainly being tongue in cheek) because I think quite a few people actually do see it that way. Drilling has become synonymous with "mass production" which in turn is often associated (inaccurately in many cases) with mediocre quality, or some equally unflattering image of industry and money. Ironically, there are quite a number of us in the flute world who do relative mass production already, only we do it with the same tools many hobbyist makers use (router, lathe, jointer, etc.). To someone who makes a dozen flutes a year, someone who makes several hundred seems like a mass producer. To them, the maker who is making a few thousand per year seems like a mass producer. You get my point...

To me, technology in my workshop is what is going to allow me to continue to make flutes for years to come, even if I start to get arthritis or have to roll around in a wheelchair (hopefully neither, of course). So long as the method does not compromise the quality of the instrument, I'm all for it.

Agreed Geoffrey , I too like my tools. And yes, I did mean it to be tounge in cheek. Anybody who has shopped for tools knows that good ones will cost you money. Gun drills and related equipment are certainly no exception, they represent a considerable investment and can only pay back via through production. Good luck with the changeover.

One area that I see line boring is a real advantage is on the big, bigger, biggest, bores......
Ed

Not dark, just boring!

I am positive that nothing mediocre has ever or will ever come out of your workshop. Your skills and standards are too high for that to happen!

By the way, have I told you how much I love my Verdi-tuned Black Limba E flat flute?

Hey Mark, I agree with Geoffrey!

Barry G

To me, whether the flute is created with hand tools or power tools or rocks on the side of the road, it's the intention of the maker and how they see their creations. If they respect the instrument and are using the best tools for their own practices, I'm certainly not going to argue.

I'm less fond of flutes that are just turned out without any variation or thought as to what would be best for that particular piece. Maybe it could be described as a cookie cutter flute?

I guess I'm saying that moving a lot of flutes through with the aid of power tools wouldn't bother me as a buyer, but I still want to feel a spirit in that flute. I want to feel like it was made with care and love, regardless of the tools or how many were produced that week

Oh and Geoffrey, I plan on getting one of your flutes some day and knowing that you are "going to the dark side" doesn't change that one bit

You are a wise man Barry G .

Power Tools



Lightning struck trees know the power
of electricity, conducting it on stormy nights
grounding to earth a force four times hotter
than the surface of the sun. A billion volts
of wild lightning burning and toppling trees
to their roots. And yet they understand.

What trees fear is greed, which lightning
in its unpremeditated will, lacks. Trees fear
the intent of corporate chain saws. Of bulldozers.
Of clear-cuts. Of the relentless ancient assault
of handheld axes motivated by the mindless

greed of war. Whole forests hand chopped,
pre-dating controlled electricity by thousands
of years. Armies of hand tools turned the Garden
of Eden into desert long before Franklin flew his kite.
It's not the tool. Not the power that turns the tool.
Wood laughs at 120VAC. It's the intent behind
the stroke, plugged or unplugged that frightens wood.

To heal or hoard, that's the question. Spirit -
the healing presence you bring to what you love
doing. Out of love, then, for the fingers of your hand
be here now, the instant you turn on the saw,
never more aware than when the blade is spinning.
Or when that sharp knife is cutting. Listen to your
hands. Is your body electric turned off? Careful
then mind the blade! It can heal or it can hoard.


by Jon Sherman

That is what I call a fine poem! Right to the essence of the matter.

Amazing! Right on target!

Thanks for the read Geoffrey! I posted this poem a couple years ago in a certain yahoo flute making group, in response to those who felt the use of hand tools was inherently more spiritual than power tools. Got flamed for it, worse than when I used to post in poetry forums! But I think you and others might agree with me that a hand tool, no less than a power tool, can lead to cussing up one side of the shop and down the other -- when the heart and breath are absent from the work. (And sometimes even then too!)

Jon

AMEN!

Wow...you got flamed for that on a woodworkers forum? Must have struck a nerve or something

Yes, the Greeks had cut down all of their forests thousands of years ago, and much of Europe was denuded long ago. Technology gives greed speed and scope, but as you so eloquently express, humans have been capable of thoughtless destruction since the dawn of existence.

Hi Jon,
I think the poem is right on target. Everyone has and gets their opinion, which is a good thing...I guess! I believe you get from a flute what is energetically put into the making of the flute. Lathe, branches, router or yes, even earth. It is really all about sharing.
Be Spirited,
John

Ahhh, yes ... hand tools forged in a machine shop. Or are these hand tools made by hand in a hand made tool shop? The machines are usually made in a machine shop but but plenty of hand work goes into putting them together. I work next to a machine shop which makes plastic things for yachts. Hand made plastic hatches for yachts tend to leak. Bad on a yacht.
In "folk art" the astute collecter looks for signs of hand carving in woodwork. A slightly rough finish as opposed to a 2000 grit sanding job. Some folk just can't get 2000 grit in Appalachia. After all, dirt is free and most dirt contains all kinds of grit.
Shades of grey are "hand made" (using a Dremel tool), burned by hand (using an electric hot knife, reostat control, and Xerox stensil transfer), hand carved (using an electric reciprocating tool), branch flute (cut in half on a band saw)

Only once have I seen a flute made entirely by hand with a pocket knife, inside and out. It really did take this Lumbee fellow hours ...days ... to make. He should be on top of the pricing market based on hours alone. I think he was asking about $30. On the flip side I've seen a $1200 perfectly machined made and machine sanded and secret vacuum packed finished flute that was touched by hand the least.
In the end all value is percieved. I like to ask what a blind made would think about a flute made by hand and a flute machined with a perfect acrylic finish. It is not just our ears and eyes that "see" a flute. Wood has tactile depth. Feeling the wood is important.
So a blind fellow came to the Potomac festival a few years ago, walked over and felt around my table and picked up a flute. He ran his hands over the flute, played it a little, touched it some more and said "nice ... needs more sanding".

I make all my instruments with a combination of power and hand tools. When I first got started in NA flute making I only had hand tools so those are what I used. Now I use a router table for cutting the bore and sac, everything else is done by hand so I can get my fingers in there for feel. And yes, when I let go of a flute I have to say goodbye and be happy with your new owner. It's one of those things that never changes, flute, guitar, or other stringed instrument, everyone is a child and I sigh when they leave my care. On the other hand to see that new owner make that instrument sing is one of the greatest joys I have ever experienced, especially if that person then says "awesome, thanks for making this for me", I just smile and say "I am glad you enjoy playing it as much as I enjoyed making it".

I love what I call "cool tools" those power tools that speed up the process and let me get more done in the few hours a week I have to devote to my craft. I like to spend my time on the important parts of construction.

Ah, what a wonderful question. I have done both ways thru the years, and now typically use a combination
of a band saw, to split the branch, and a dremel to make clean near perfect finger holes. Alas, the drill and
lathe are rusting away. It got to where when I fired up the boring and turning process, I was losing touch
with the wood, the magic of the feel of the flute as it was being made.
Now the thrill of tromping thru the woods, watching for snakes, wading across streams and even a shallow
area of the lake to get to wood that has not been seen before, the thrill of finding that rare piece of wood
that begs to become a flute, wow, nothing like it, except when I get home and start to work.
To be able to sit outside under the Creators canapy of whispering trees, and beneath a blue sky, and to feel the sun
on my body while I make my flute, it is like a little piece of heaven reserved just for me.
It is wonderful to sit and remove the bark, to see what color and grain Creator and the wood have given me
to work with. I cannot improve on Creators work, only act as his agent to breathe a little life back into a dead
piece of wood.
I have nothing but respect for anyone who makes flutes, for the love of them, and using whatever method is right for
that person. I do object to a maker making flutes with nothing but money as the end objective. The flute is a relic
from times passed, when magic was alive. I wish to keep that magic alive as long as I possibly can.
So, I have not made a "primarily machined flute" in years. I may someday, as age wears my body down, return
to my roots of machining, but till then, you will find me in my yard, in the woods, or on the lake shore, making my
branch flutes with as few tools as possible, and loving every minute of it.

what difference it makes is up to the individual as far as the looks goes now the sound has got to touch my heart and soul. and to me it doesnt matter which it is as long as the voice of the flute speaks to my heart. but i must say i truly love an older looking primitive style or natural branch flute when it comes to look. many blessings robert

Well I've begun working mostly branch flutes lately and I am like John, using only hand tools except for the band saw to split branches. I've got an ancient froe but most of the branches I have collected over the winter have knots in enough places to make spliting impractical so out came the band saw. I have two gouges that get the most workout a half inch straight and a 3/8 curved. other than these two tools I just use my rifflers and needle files to form the sound mechanism and the dremel with cone stone for burning the tone holes. I've found that the wood in a branch speaks to me best when I have my hands on it. this summer I will probably get back to making a few "straight" flutes with the router table but I have my best experiences with the sound mechanism by doing them with the hand tools.

all my sanding is done by hand and since I have micromesh papers I could get the wood so slick no finish would be able to stick. I tend to stop now when I get to 4000 grit, the last time I went to 12000 I couldn't even get oil to go into the wood much less get the marine varnish I use to stay on.

Bryant

G
As you know I have one of those bored flutes. A purple heart mid E with maple caps and block. It is a heavy flute but plays like a dream. Karen a member of our circle purchased a mid G bored from G out of curly maple. They are both wonderful. Kally one advantage with a bored flute, there is never an issue with the flute splitting along the glue seam. This is not a huge problem but I have had a flute or two split. Of course on lighter woods there is no glue seam showing. Makers I have who bored their flutes besides G are Coyote Oldman , Russ Wolf, and Butch Hall. All very highly reputable.If you are seeking a flute out of an exotic wood like yellow heart that is hard and oily it is better for the flute to be bored. These woods are hard to get to hold a glue seam. You need not worry about the method of construction. Just buy from a reputable maker with a good reputation. You should be fine. Not many makers bore there flutes as G said the equipment is very expensive. So the flutes G does in the future that are bored will maintain the high quality of sound he is known for!

There are even fewer of us who bore by hand~not expensive at all. Well at least not in the tools...brace $6-bit $17 wear and tear on the joints priceless

I did one totally by hand once when camping. I used a carving knife for splitting the blank, roughing out the TSH from the inside and carving the outside, and a bent knife for the bore. I bound the halves with sinue, touched things up with sandpaper on sticks, and burned the holes with burning sticks. I tuned it using body measurements.

The exercise was rewarding, and helped me appreciate the craft even more. But I have to admit that modern technology was involved: forged and hardened blades on the knives, modern steel rods turned down to burning-stick shape on a drill press using files, manufactured sand paper, and polyurethane glue to glue the halves back together and bound it with synthetic sinue. I could have used hide glue and genuine sinue, but I didn't have any at the time. Some day I would like to do it again with flint cutting tools, bone drills, and glue from spruce sap, ash and bear fat.

Mike

I'm sorry that some don't care for the solid bore process, or drilling. Being able to use this kind of equipment allows me to make more flutes per year, to give to more kids. I make somewhere in the neighbor hood of 300 to 350 flutes per year, I could make more, but there are several things that hold me back. Mostly the metal in my back, requires a lot of recliner time. To me the most interesting part of making flutes is making the sound mechanism in each one. As you know each one is different, even if they are the same. In my case, I make a plug, a bridge, a cutting edge and then putting it all together is a challenge to bring out the best voice of that flute. I really can't say anything that hasen't been said, but I guess I just wanted to say that there are a few makers that use the best technology they can afford to make flutes, and technology that allows them to make as many as possible, and still put all there heart into each one. Each one I can make means that there is one more native child that can learn to play.

Wonderful topic...
I won't go explaining my own flutemaking way,
cause both Hawk and Ozarkguru have already described,
beautifully, everything,
and I have nothing better to explain.
I work like them.

But, I 'll add a little evening thought:
I make my flutes by hand not by phylosophy,
but to stay on the track, keep the contact,
with the tree, with myself, with the creation.
It's like trying to not break the circle.
I don't think it's about electrical vs hand tools.
or modern made steel gouges vs flint stones,
but it's keeping the relation:
The branch was already the flute,
and the flute is still a branch.
... And the flutemaker still a man.

I aree with you, I use a table saw to cut my slats and a router to put in the bore and slow air chamber.
I've traded in my knife for an antique hand plainer. It works great, I can comfortably do four flute body's in couple of hours. It's not using a lathe but it's a lot faster than a knife.
I still do a couple of hours of finish sanding on it.

As far as the mention of fine tuning.....the original makers couldn't run out and buy a digital tuner. In fact they would take weeks to fashion a workable flute. If you worked on a flute for a coupla weeks you would probly be gratful if it even squeeked. Truth is, in the original recipe tuning was not required. HOWEVER, the maker of the flute had no idea of what KEY the flute would be in. After making many of these flutes I am honored to say my wifes hand is a prefect sharp "F". So it was easy for me to use the original formula to create mine.
I do get a lot of scrap. Other than that though the flutes that do come out have evenly spaced holes, and their holes are all the same diameter, that to me makes it worth it.
If my flutes are out of key it's because I did something wrong and not the flutes fault. You might look at some of the flutes I've posted here in the past for examples.
Peace.