I view those of us involved with the flute as a community. A community brought together by the love of an instrument. There are makers, players, researchers, authors, teachers, business people, native and non-native… the full spectrum. Almost all are helping to build the community, but there are a few who would like to divide it. They say,” The flute belongs to me and my people. Those of you who are not my people yet still make and sell this flute are thieves. The rest of you are simply responsible for my impoverished condition”. These are not the words of someone who wants to build a future for this community (or this country). They are the words of someone who would destroy it. I strongly believe that the flute is a healing instrument. Not the minor ailments of the individual, but the larger community that includes both native and non-native. The flute has fostered a greater interest in and understanding of native culture. The market for flutes has grown incredibly – grown for everyone, but this only came about because of the entire community, not an isolated segment. If we allow malcontents to divide this community then the gains we have made (the healing and the understanding) will be lost. Their strategy is to divide by spreading lies and misinformation. This creates bitterness and misunderstanding. The answer is to ignore their words, realize the truth (my truth is that I am not a thief and that everything I’ve done with regard to the flute has only made the world a better place), and continue building the good relationships that make this a unique and wonderful community. Russ Wolf

There are malcontents, in every culture. The flute community will not be divided by those who are not sharing and encouraging. The malcontents need your sympathy, more than anything else, for they will never know the joy of community.

Well spoken Russ. Thank you.

Very well said, Russ. And I do believe that old saw, "What goes around....." Except why does it always seem to take sooooo long?

About those malcontents....

One may assume that they are flutemakers?

One wonders if they restrict their business to only people they think have a right to own & play the NA flute - NA males?

Yes.

No. They aren't completely crazy.

I happen to be married to a NA female who thinks their idea is BS.

It's a good thing Mary Youngblood thinks so too.

There's plenty more out there in the woodwork. Hovia Edwards is also a recording star, and Native. She even recorded with Tree Cody, who is Native.

There will be more and more female players, and some will become recording stars, who will be Native players. If you think the men will keep them down for long, you do not know much about women.

...been married four times. I suppose that could be construed either way.

Questionable. Like my friend, who is a shakuhachi master, and a student called him asking for marital advice........and his response was........"what do I know......I have been married 4 times!"

I don't deserve to be on the same page with Mary Youngblood, but Ol' No Talent Woman that I am, I'd like to see someone try to take my flutes away! HA! He better bring a lotta friends!

Heard something really profound last night, from a very wise woman. She said that because the flute is hollow, it also represents a portal or passage-way, and the Breath Of Life flows through it when we play. That is why the Ancient Ones used them so much in ceremony.

Nice thought. I kinda have a different outlook on it, but those who relate the flute to living and breathing, are pretty good missionaries.

Exactly why our group name is what it is, Branches Breath. Those curious as to why will ask, it'll get them thinking and that is the reason I give. We are sharing this music with all who will hear, our breath wakes the flute up, gives it it's voice, allows it to sing for them. We're happy just to play, they're at peace when they listen, It's a give and take relationship.

Thanks Russ--wise words.

It has been explored on other threads in this forum, but I will observe again that people have different attitudes about what tradition is and how best to honor it. I've always tried to take the birds-eye view of things...even more than that, the "satellite" view of things (trying to take a perspective that is high above, seeking a wider horizon).

On the one hand, I think it is very important to honor and respect different cultures, their values, and what they share with humanity. On the other hand, individuals who choose to try to contain what they think belongs to them, protecting it from what they perceive as the "other" are utterly doomed to fail at their task. Culture and tradition are ephemeral--they exist in time and therefore seem to have continuity, but when measured with those larger increments of time that dwarf a human lifespan they are seen to be mere blips on the existential radar.

The native vs. non-native argument, in this instance related to the flute, is absurd in my view. I understand why the original settlers of North America want to protect their cultural heritage--it has not been that long since it was wrenched from them by force. But as has been observed elsewhere, cultures evolve this way. There have always been "conquerors" who have changed the cultural landscape--it has been as regular as the tides in the ocean.

The block flute is almost certainly something that the Native peoples created in response to seeing European woodwinds. They came up with their own, very cool variation on those instruments. Flutes have existed all over the world for centuries. The Natives of America see a penny whistle (or something similar) and they adapt it. A hundred and fifty years later, the descendants of the Europeans start adapting the adaptation, and some of the Native peoples feel that their heritage is being violated. A friend of mine (of European descent) was talking with a Native man at one point who spoke of the white peoples tendency to steal these ideas from the Native peoples. My friend replied, "Well, I'll concede the flute to you if you are willing to give up driving a car, using electricity, etc." His point being (obviously) that all cultures borrow from one another, and it is natural and inevitable.

Now I don't say this to upset any one of Native descent! Rather I'm trying to speak to the "big picture". Humanity has filled this planet to the bursting point, and all of the cultures are pushing together and blending, borrowing, absorbing, sharing. It will not stop. Some cultures will vanish and new ones will appear--just as it has always been.

It is all about the attitude of the people doing the blending and sharing. As Russ points out, the world is a better place because of what he does. The more people who play flutes and feel connected to something--be it Nature, Spirit, their Inner Self, their fellow humans---the better it is for humanity as a whole.

Gotta agree with that. Sometimes I get criticized for the big picture, but that's the way my vision works. See bigger, and speak less. (Not less frequently.....just less at a time.)

Good point about the penny whistle possibly being the real ancestor of the NA block flute.

Don't forget that the entire horse culture of the western tribes is less than 500 years old. There were no horses in North America until the Europeans reintroduced them. There were prehistoric horses in North America, but they were the size of dogs and long gone before people began crossing into this continent from Asia.

Most of us not of Native American heritage are of Western European descent. Our own Western heritage and culture has been shaped and reshaped repeatedly by invaders and conquerors over the last few thousand years. I'm mostly Irish and Welsh. Pure Irish culture? Phtttfpt! Great Britain has been invaded by just about everybody with a boat! Romans, Vikings, Normans, Saxons....

More likely a recorder than a penny whistle. Of course, I still think there were flutes older than that, in the eastern woodlands, but because they would have, at that time, been made of river cane, there is little surviving evidence.

On the other hand, the Anasazi flutes may have been old enough to make the entire issue of original or copy cat, a real issue. If, in fact, the Anasazi existed before the Europeans arrived, then I would question whether the NAF is indeed a copy cat.......or just a silly notion that primitive peoples couldn't come up with that, on their own.

Just about every culture on planet Earth has come up with some kind of flute--having any sort of copyright on a particular design seems a bit preposterous to me.

Jimbo, I made the very same point in a similar thread last year--every culture has been conquered at some point, intermarried and then intermingled their gene pools with the conquering race. Populations of humans migrate, so even the idea of "native" is silly, regardless of what world culture uses the term. At this point, about the only thing someone can claim with any historical accuracy is that they are a Native of Earth.

it's interesting to note that the colonizers and conquerors of almost all the lands in the western hemisphere allowed the indigenous peoples and the africans that were brought over to keep all or most of their own culture. besides the physical genocide, there was a purposeful cultural ethnic cleansing in north america. i think that is one of the main reasons that our native peoples are so protective and defensive of their cultural traditions. in the grand stretch of time the wound is still fresh and the healing is just starting. i think the flute, by it's nature, can be a bridge from the past to the future.

I'm embarrassed by how long those malcontents frightened me away from this beautiful instrument.

I'm really really glad I learned better.

I can't say that I have EVER encountered a malcontent concerning the NAF...... it wouldn't deter me anyhow.... it would just fuel my interest, and spur me on.....

Greetings all,

I do not see the history of Europe much different than that of North America regarding conguest. Stronger nations and tribes have been exploiting weaker ones since the earliest times. I know the Romans attempted to completely wipe out the Celts and drove them all the way to Scotland and Ireland. I know some remained in Spain but the Moor's did a great job of removing or subjugating them. The pagan Galls were forced to convert or be killed and forfeit their lands by Charlemagne. I think that ALL areas of the world have experienced this type of cultural extermination. The difference I see is primarily the difference in technologies and the one sided technical advantage that the Europeans had over the Indigenous population. This being said, the Romans seemed much more technically advanced than many of the cultures they subjected except maybe the Carthaginians and Greeks. I hope we can all come together as a nation someday. My family is primarily Welsh and Irish decent and we lost several family members during the Civil War so the seed of bitterness could be sown if desired. We were at the bottom of the pole for many generations regarding wealth and privilege. We could be bitter over a wide variety of issues but chose not to focus on them. Our nation is very young and was forged out of war and in many cases, great injustice. I hope we chose to look forward and focus on a positive future based on mutual respect rather than allowing ill feelings of past indiscretions to fester and poison our hearts and minds. I hope we can come together as Americans in the great cultural melting pot. I am not saying we should forget our cultures but I do believe they should compliment and support each other in time.

Mark

A couple of remarks have been made about respecting other cultures. I can only take that so far. Without turning this into a political or religious thread, do we want to extend tolerance and acceptance to every culture out there? Think before you answer. There are some cultures out there with very nasty practices and human rights records.

Say, not wanting to go too far on this, but I think we would be hard pressed to find a culture who doesn't have a "blemished" record on a lot of things, including our own.

Not all individuals subscribe to the "ills" of their culture.

(Set warning on: the following is a controversial statement)

There seems to be a "conventional" wisdom on "native cultures" that they were idyllic and always lived harmoniously with their environment and didn't exploit it. I would rationalize that as a distortion of reality. Every culture has exploited their environment to suit their needs to the level of their ability and population density. No single culture has a corner on "rightness" or "righteousness". (Except maybe the Flutish culture... )

(End diatribe)....



- Richard

I think we can take it as read that any culture that involves human beings has, at one time or another, done what humans always manage to do: Be cruel, brutal and tyrannical.

We can't judge a culture by the behavior of some individuals within it. Bringing it back to the original post that Russ made: The individuals who are causing this ebay issue are not likely representing the majority of native culture--I suspect they are representing themselves (proceeding on the assumption that they are Native American, which no one knows).

I suspect the only conclusion that can definitely be drawn is that it is individuals (whatever their cultural background or history) acting from the primary motivation of protecting their own individual interests, rather than seeking to protect cultural heritage.

I'll leave it up to the reader to decide if that is in keeping with community and culture or not.

My mentor of many years, while growing up, told me once:

"Man is the cruelest of all animals".

Think about it...

The human animal is the most violent on the planet.

No Russ, I do not feel that you or any other modern flute maker can be called a thief simply because you make NA style flutes!
Gosh, would someone have called Dr Richard Payne a thief??? I would certainly hope not!!! He was a giver, not a taker!!!
I truly believe that Doc Payne taught you and many other flute makers to carry the flute tradition onward and upward with great respect and admiration so that it would indeed make a tremendous difference in our world . . . in many ways! Foremost, . . . The Woo that sings to our hearts!

Those who only wish to divide, are probably not willing to share anything anyway!!! Someone with total negativity, greed, spitefulness, and anger (such as the person you quoted that I have highlighted above) will more than likely be instilling that same negativity right into a flute!!! If someone is truly "Impoverished", then perhaps they need to seek a different path in life and make some changes! We all have choices! Yes, it does appear that someone has started somewhat of a "Flute War" of sorts, but the vast community of peaceful and loving flute enthusiasts shall prevail!

Otherwise, gifting the world with this style of flute along with the best of intentions, is indeed a glorious thing . . . no matter who makes them!

Russ, thank you for creating your flute instruction book so that folks from all walks of life can make a flute . . . if they so desire!

This is related to what has previously been said, but is of a slightly different nature. Let me know if any of you think it should have its' own heading.

I recently put myself in the position of assuring others that I wasn't aware of any flute makers selling their flutes as Native American made when they weren't legally entitled to do so. So this morning I thought I would check the ebay listings. Almost immediately I found two that concerned me. In the first one, (a prominent and prolific seller of others flutes) the title makes it appear that it may be made by a Native American. The description makes it clear that it is not, but if the title were more clear there would be no problem at all. The second one disturbed me. I believe it is a clear and direct violation of the Indian Arts and Crafts act of 1990. This person lists a tribal affiliation that isn't federally recognized as his claim to Native American status. I know it isn't incumbent upon buyers to police sellers and I know that tribal affiliation probably isn't an important factor in your decision to buy flutes. But, I would like to ask you to refrain from buying from people who intentionally mislead others. How would you know? In nearly all cases, a legally entitled person will have a BIA number. Ask for it. There are those who believe they have a moral claim to Native American status, yet aren't legally entitled. A clear statement could always be made to that effect. That's fine, I hope those people can gain the recognition they seem to desire, but it doesn't make it OK to lie and mislead others, besides which, it reflects poorly on the rest of the non-native makers (who are trying to do right and follow the law). Please help me to keep things fair and honest. Russ Wolf

found this on myspace today. i'm posting this in the spirit of understanding and perhaps to shed some light on different points of view. in my opinion it's a fundamentalist outlook butthat doesn't make it wrong. this deals with the ebay situation and this thread in particular.



See the blog and comments here:
http://lakota. ning. com/profiles/blogs/time-to-put-the-native-back

Hau Mitakiepi,

Who owns the right to our ways? How does one measure what Native
means? The 1978 American Indian Religious Freedom Act decriminalized
the practice of our Lifeways.
During this same era of re-awakening
among our People, a man name Richard Payne was amassing a large,
private collection of Native Flutes.
As with any of our artifacts
removed from the People, the transactions involved in collecting
nearly 1000 flutes must be considered as quite dubious.
He became the
vaunted saint of Native Flute collectors.
Others came and wrote books
and made songs of praise of how Mr. Payne "saved the Native Flute".

Soon, many non-Indigenous became intrigued.
A man named Russ Wolf then
wrote a how-to book on the construction of the Native Flute.
Now,
venues such as "Musical Echoes" in Fort Walton Beach, Florida, tout
themselves as a "Native American Flute And Cultural Festival", yet
these venues are filled with non-Native flute vendors and players.
The
number of enrolled Natives participating is negligible compared to the
widespread insinuation of "Natives Gathering".
The 1990 Indian Arts
and Crafts Act is meant to prevent these sorts of misappropriations
from occurring.
No art shows exist in the United States that call
themselves "Native" that feature non-Native artists.
They could not
exist because our People would notice.
The non-Native artists painting
Native themes call themselves instead "Western Artists" or the like
instead. Same with powwows, music and film.
Yet, because the Native
Flute is so powerful, and because non-Natives have their talons buried
deep in the gatekeeping of this way, non-Native gatherings are able to
flourish while masquerading as Natives.


The front page website (http://www. doi. gov/iacb/act. html) of the 1990
Indian Arts and Crafts Act states:

"The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 (P.L.
101-644) is a
truth-in-advertising law that prohibits misrepresentation in marketing
of Indian arts and crafts products within the United States.
It is
illegal to offer or display for sale, or sell any art or craft product
in a manner that falsely suggests it is Indian produced, an Indian
product, or the product of a particular Indian or Indian Tribe or
Indian arts and crafts organization, resident within the United
States.
For a first time violation of the Act, an individual can face
civil or criminal penalties up to a $250,000 fine or a 5-year prison
term, or both.
If a business violates the Act, it can face civil
penalties or can be prosecuted and fined up to $1,000,000.


Under the Act, an Indian is defined as a member of any federally or
State recognized Indian Tribe, or an individual certified as an Indian
artisan by an Indian Tribe.


The law covers all Indian and Indian-style traditional and
contemporary arts and crafts produced after 1935.
The Act broadly
applies to the marketing of arts and crafts by any person in the
United States.
Some traditional items frequently copied by non-Indians
include Indian-style jewelry, pottery, baskets, carved stone fetishes,
woven rugs, kachina dolls, and clothing.


All products must be marketed truthfully regarding the Indian heritage
and tribal affiliation of the producers, so as not to mislead the
consumer.
It is illegal to market an art or craft item using the name
of a tribe if a member, or certified Indian artisan, of that tribe did
not actually create the art or craft item.


For example, products sold using a sign claiming "Indian Jewelry"
would be a violation of the Indian Arts and Crafts Act if the jewelry
was produced by someone other than a member, or certified Indian
artisan, of an Indian tribe.
Products advertised as "Hopi Jewelry"
would be in violation of the Act if they were produced by someone who
is not a member, or certified Indian artisan, of the Hopi tribe.


If you purchase an art or craft product represented to you as
Indian-made, and you learn that it is not, first contact the dealer to
request a refund.
If the dealer does not respond to your request, you
can also contact your local Better Business Bureau, Chamber of
Commerce, and the local District Attorney's office, as you would with
any consumer fraud complaint.
Second, contact the Indian Arts and
Crafts Board with your written complaint regarding violations of the Act.


Before buying Indian arts or crafts at powwows, annual fairs, juried
competitions, and other events, check the event requirements on the
authenticity of products being offered for sale.
Many events list the
requirements in newspaper advertisements, promotional flyers, and
printed programs.
If the event organizers make no statements on
compliance with the Act or on the authenticity of Indian arts and
crafts offered by participating vendors, you should obtain written
certification from the individual vendors that their Indian arts or
craftwork were produced by tribal members or by certified Indian
artisans.
"

Why then do so many false flute fests flourish? Simple.
There just are
not many Native Flute Makers left.
We have been utterly divested of
the Flute while private collections and museum collections grow.
That
cannot be allowed to continue.
Light must be shone upon the
misappropriaters.
What can be done? Surprisingly, the answer started
with eBay.
Through complaints probably to do with the highly
circulated (among Natives anyway) story of the Native scalp for sale
on eBay, eBay decided to not allow the term "Native American" in
regards to non-Native flute sellers.
After a few days of various
sellers attempting different word combinations, "American Flute" seems
to have become the standard.
Great! Lets adopt this for those large
non-native Flute gatherings which feature not even a handful of
enrolled Native performers/sellers.
Why? Because now, instead of
touting themselves as "the renaissance" of Native Flutes, it would be
obvious that there is a large gulf between what is currently
misnomered as a "Native American Flute Festival" and what a gathering
of Natives encompass.
Of course, the non-Native flute makers will
raise a hue and cry: "DON'T take the Native out of our name!" They
will say they are honoring us, just like the pro-mascot people say.

They are pretenders. They are playing Indian. Play time is over.


Although I fully believe the times of confrontation have passed, that
this is a time of gathering, I also fully believe that our Healing as
Native People begins with our Roots.
Our Roots begin with The Drum,
The Rattle and The Flute. We must take measures to protect our Roots.

Maybe Tribal Councils need to be spoken to, Tribal Statements and
Proclamations made. Precedents set.
Maybe Sundances and Sundancers
need to reclaim that Flute, which is a part of our masculinity.
Maybe
even online petitions, groups, entities of any sort, as there are no
entities whatsoever now.
The "International Native Flute Association"
may be the prime culprit in the misappropriation of the term Native
Flute, as there are very few Natives involved at all, except in
seemingly ceremonial roles.


I am all for non-Natives enjoying the flute.
I am all for them making
and selling the flute.
I would just like to see the connotation of
"Native" removed.


Hecetuwelo, Wanbli WiWohkpe he emacia pelo.

James Herbert Starkey
Enrolled Member, Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe

"North American flute" or "Indigenous North American Flute" will probably meet the case if there is a strong movement to refine or enforce the law. However, as I mentioned before, I spoke with the Indian Arts and Crafts Board some years ago, and they told me that so long as I used "Native American Style Flute" and said openly that I was not Native, then that was adequate.

Jim if you give credence to the words of people who are full of hate, you will be tainted by those words. I could respond at length to that little diatribe, but it's not worth the effort. I will mention a couple of things. Doctor Richard Payne was my friend, at least during the last few years of his life. He was as kind and generous a human being as I've known. His house was literally open to anyone who was interested in the flute. Natives and non-natives alike were welcomed, they stayed with him, played his flutes, talked about flutes and made flutes. To amass his collection he traveled all over seeking out flute makers and purchasing their flutes or sometimes trading for them. He was as interested in the makers and their processes as he was the actual flutes. He was involved with the flute for at least 70 years, and was a respected elder, especially by Natives. The person who wrote the article that you quoted (James Starky) has only been involved with the flute for a very short time. He knows nothing about the truth of Doc Payne. He also singled out Musical Echoes. Events like that bring cultural understanding, promote the flute, and provide an outlet for flute makers regardless of race. Additionally, those events provide a venue and employment for Native Flute Players. He doesn't have any idea of the degree of 'Indian' involvement in that event. There are actually many people of Native heritage who both plan and put on that event. The Indian Arts and Crafts Act of 1990 has to do with selling arts and crafts. It doesn't apply to the promotion of art festivals and musical events. Starky makes veiled accusations and threats out of one side of his mouth while telling you he doesn't care who makes flutes out of the other. The truth is he doesn't want anyone of non-native heritage (and by that he means tribal members, not those who just happen to have Native blood) involved in any aspect of Native culture. The flute is a cultural bridge. Attempting to tear down that bridge is divisive and counterproductive to both racial relations and the economic benefits to Native people of a greater flute market. Lest you think I have no understanding of the Native world let me tell you that I've had college education in Native relations (taught by a full blooded Hopi from the Hopi reservation), one of my best friends is a Muskogee (Indian boarding school card carrying Native American) elder, and My (adopted (as an infant)) sister is Apache. I'm getting tired of responding to this persons words, but keeping silent only gives credence to those words. Russ Wolf

hey russ... i was in no means condoning the statement or meaning but was passing along something that i found that could shed light on the disagreement. the flute IS a bridge, amongst other things, from the past to the present and future. despite the fundamentalist views of all cultures and faiths the world is inter-connected, we are all one in the larger perspective. following the fundamentalist logic a native person shouldn't play any instrument that wasn't directly handed down from their ancestors, ie: any western instrument, guitar, anything with electronics etc. we all see the fallacy of that argument.
at the same time we talk of the healing aspects of the flute. what is it that needs healing? it is the minds and hearts of people who can't see and understand anothers viewpoint. a fundamentalist approach to life is a divisive one as we've all witnessed in the last few decades, whether it's in politics, religion and culture. the question is how to change (if that's even possible) the hearts and minds of fundamentalists. logic and reason doesn't seem to do any good. i think it comes down to, as ghandi said, BE the change you want to see in the world. only by example can people see the light and make up their own minds. in the scientific community it is said that change comes about funeral by funeral. people holding on to their egos will never accept change.
i knew posting the polemic would be a little controversial, but how else are people to undertand each other and where they're coming from. this issue is just a microcosm of the world we live in. stepping back a few miles and forgetting the mention of yours and dr. payne's names, can we all see the inter-being of life and come together in the great mystery?

and so it goes..........

It is amusing that some people seek to use the flute, to seize upon the argument as to what is "Native", when there has been no true consensus, that the NAF, is truly based on Native culture, and not on European instruments.

While I personally believe that the NAF is a design that preceeded European instruments, that is not entirely proven, at this point, and that is especially so of the NAF block design flute, as opposed to rim blown flutes.

The other amusing aspect, is that I see many Native people, selling non-Native made goods, at pow wows, in tourist shops, etc. (The trade markets are open to any retail person, with a valid tax number, irregardless of cultural affiliation. Therefore, Chinese, or other, origin products will be found almost anywhere you want to look.)

So........that is a very grey line, in my view, and in fact, it has been, about all cultures and all things cultural, everywhere in the world.

So, must admit that I do not look at culture. I simply look at craftsmanship, and if the work is of sufficient merit, for me to desire to have an example of it.

Hi Jim I appreciate your thoughts on this matter. I think you see things more positively than I do. Where you see a fundamentalist, I see a facist or a racist. I thought I was done with that guy after a long debate on the Native Flute Wood working forum. He was ultimately censored. I don't think that he wants to come to any kind of understanding. You surprised me by posting something from him here. Probably a good thing since it sheds some light on a situation people here should know about. I made an interesting observation in that for a fundamentalist, he's not above using the opressors' medium, PVC, for his sacred siyotanka. Russ Wolf

Wow~ I can not believe some of what I am reading here...and I have only gleaned some of the recent posts in this thread.
I would like to respond in more detail but will not at this point. I must say though that when I read the comments above from J H Starkey I DID not read hate in his words. Many of the sentiments echo some of those I have written about in the past here.
I interpret his concerns as having to do more with cultural appropriation/exploitation rather than simply a flute issue..

One thing I find rather interesting about the whole e-bay issue:

Controversy arose because someone may have instigated e-bay to look closer at the title/label's regarding native "style" stuff being sold.
This caused quite an uproar by the sellers of this "stuff" because it jeopardized sales, reduced the ability to use this "stuff" as a means to support family etc.
The majority of sellers if not all have openly and honestly admitted to not being native.
Many of these sellers (not all) have pointed fingers at some native "malcontents" for the problems created. On this forum the concerns have been stated in a very respectful manner however not the case on other forums...
Interestingly the oft times emotionally packed concerns being expressed by the non-native sellers of native style stuff is EXACTLY what native people have experienced and articulated for many years...

In part my reason for joining this forum was to use it as a platform to observe and learn about peoples relationship with the flute. It has been an enriching and gratifying time! It also has been so so fascinating to watch this issue (flute) grow to its present porportions.
We, in my opinion, have expressed our compassions for peoples who have been "conquered" now it appears that there might be a little more empathy since many of the sellers of native style stuff are having a similar experience that native people have had for sometime now.

Might be with this shared experience/knowledge we can reshape our tools of understanding and move on with RESPECT for each other...

Hawk, the issue may be more about the futility of trying to live in the past, rather than in the now. Honoring the past, while living in the now, is fine. Trying to live in the past, and wishing to undo what has been done, is futile. To my view, this is the precarious place, this person is at.

I have seen much of this in the Lakota viewpoint, as well.

Rick I agree ...living in the past is futile. We are here now today.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
While I understand the importance and complex nature of the ebay issue I was a bit taken aback to see such harsh language being used. I think that for some this issue(s) has stimulated thoughts of ancestoral guilt, questions of belonging and of self worth. I say this after reading on another forum, discussions of who is "really indigenous", comments about being true native american because descendants were the first Europeans to arrive...
There is anger and fear throughout and I believe e-bay is only the surface.
On one hand the (we) indigenous peoples of this continent are still dealing with the consequences of past genocidal actions and in too many cases these actions continue. We can rationalize and say it happens to all peoples and it is time to get over it however this is not so easily done, just look at the reaction of the ebay sellers whose lives have been dramatically effected by what is happening.
I have no clue as to how this ebay thing will resolve itself. I think that as difficult as it has been it might serve to cause US to reflect on being a Human Being...

I'm certainly not going to pretend to understand the finer points of this entire issue enough to offer much of an opinion, but maybe someone can clarify something for me. I was adopted. I have no idea what my ancestry is and, personally, feel no connection to it, regardless of what it may be. I know I am human, and I have been exposed to many different cultures from living in different parts of the world and having friends in even more places. What I don't understand is, as so many people are calling for peace in the world, and among people of different cultures, races, religions, and even belief systems... I feel like the human race is trying to move towards a broader culture of understanding and respect of all people (or maybe that is being optimistic, but I hope, in baby steps, that we are doing that and that a majority of the people in this world want it).

Why, then, are we still fighting battles hundreds of years old? What can we do to move past this and gain a better understanding of each other's perspectives? I can imagine a world where we all freely respect and share in each others traditions and cultures, without feeling the need to retain ownership of them. From my perspective, it is important for those of us who have strong roots to remember, respect, and live with them in our hearts, but is it time yet to let go of the divisiveness? Again, this is coming from someone who does not have strong roots that I feel the need to "protect", so I am truly interested in learning of other perspectives on this.

I do also realize, that not having an in-depth understanding of the native culture and not having lived it, there is much I don't understand, and so I have absolute respect for all view points represented here, and I am viewing this thread as an opportunity to learn the perspectives of many people.



Hawk, as a member of a minority group who has very recently taken quite a lot of heat and has only recently gained some rights regarding employment and such in this state, I understand that it is not easy to "get over it", especially when treatment continues to be poor at best in many cases. At the same time, I feel that it is important that we all reach across the boundaries and do our best to understand and respect each other, for only with respectful discussion can any of us make progress with each other, even if we disagree at the current time. I also feel it is important to refrain from lumping all non native people into one group, as that blog post does with non-native flute makers. To me, that part is very poorly worded, to put it mildly. It is so hard to give respect to someone when that person is judging a group of people, without knowing the individuals.

Thanks to everyone who has lent their perspectives to this thread. It has been a good education to understand an issue such as this from so many.

Good point ... not sure how relevant this is, but your comment triggered a flashback to the early 70s when I was a teenager in So. Cal. A friend and I, both white, unexpectedly walked into a gathering where nearly everyone else was black. My friend somewhat too loudly said, "Gosh, there sure are a lot of minorities here" to which I joked, "Yeah, I bet I'm the only Norwegian descendent." Someone overheard us and turned around to shake my hand and welcome me to the group. My friend didn't fare so well. Unfortunately, a few years later I had a front row seat to a major race riot that sent several people to the hospital. It started between members of a live band and some hecklers sitting next to me ... not something you easily forget. My hope is that NAF music can bring us all together, not be just another reason for more "bloodshed."

Hawk, I think that is simply the weariness of dealing with the battle of becoming one. It is a battle, as there are always those who choose divisiveness over inclusiveness. I agree, some of the verbage was a little strong, but if you have been fighting that battle for a while, in a way you view as uncalled for, (and some have), then you weary of it, and say things that are not necessarily what you want to say.

I would not be surprised, to hear that you have fought those battles yourself, and that perhaps you might have some understanding, of that situation.

One of the problems with "maintaining an identity", culturally, is that it tends to lead to divisiveness. That is because, once you do that, you have created an atmosphere of exclusiveness......you only accept those in that culture, and exclude others. This is part of why we have been fighting the battle of acceptance of all peoples, from all cultures, for so long. In the very celebration of a culture, we tend to leave others on the outside. That never fosters good feelings, no matter which side of the cultural divide we are on.

We need to keep ourselves above that battle, and set the example.......all of us here, to being inclusive of all, in the flute community. I am in that place, and would like to invite all here, to join me in setting aside any and all divisiveness, and let us work together to foster that inclusiveness that creates harmony and peace in our world.

In doing so, we may sometimes find ourselves rejecting ideas that are not worthy of that goal, although we can do so, without condemning the ideas of others. While I do not disrespect the ideas, put forth by the Cheyenne individual, I reject those ideas, as divisive, and encourage him to consider a more inclusive concept, and to welcome harmony among peoples, for the greater good of all.

As I have suggested before, bad ideas and bad behaviors, may be found in all cultures. They need not, however, be embraced by others.

It seems like the main issue James Starkey has involves the inaccurate (from his perspective) use of the term Native in reference to the style of flute discussed on this forum, but I'm not entirely sure. He talks about protecting the musical roots of their cultures yet he is okay with (and even encouraging of) non-Natives making, selling, and enjoying the flute. I suppose then I do not fully understand what is implied by "protecting" the flute, unless the only thing he is truly concerned with protecting is the title for the instrument.

I certainly believe that flute makers (and other artisans) should not wrongly claim ancestry that they are not entitled to in order to sell products, but I don't think calling this type of flute Native American means that those who make or play these flutes are trying to "play Indian" or pretend to be something they're not.

If essentially the same instrument is called a Native American flute when either made by or being played by a Native person, what should it be called when made and/or played by a non-Native one? I'm aware that some Native players and recording artists use flutes that are made by non-Natives. How do we classify these flutes?

On Odell Borg's website he has a small disclaimer: "A note about Native American flutes - just as a 'French horn' is a particular type of musical instrument, 'Native American flute' refers to a particular type of musical instrument and does not imply that it was made by an enrolled member of a federally-recognized tribe. Although Odell has Native American ancestry (Ojibway) and his flutes are owned, used and endorsed by many prominent Native American musicians, High Spirits flutes are not 'Native American made' as specified by the U.S. Government."
That is really the crux of the issue from our perspective.

Although Mr. Starkey claims his qualms are only related to the word Native being a misnomer in reference to flutes made and/or played by non-Natives, his essay indicates something more to me. I don't believe he was being fascist, racist or hateful. I think he honestly was writing about frustrations encountered when trying to preserve his cultural identity and defend it against exploitation. As Rick said though, where cultural identity is concerned, it involves some sort of exclusion as a matter of self-definition. The "Native American" flute is obviously a delicate issue and it's clear (in my opinion, anyways) that the matter runs deeper than semantics.

Hau Mitakiepi,
My name is Wanbli WiWohkpe, or, James Starkey. I have said the same thing over and over, don't connote being a "Native" when you aren't. I confronted Odell Borg personally, he ended up telling the truth: he doesnt have any idea who his father was, no idea what nation, nothing. he ain't Indian. he ain't the problem either. The problem is the widespread insinuation. If it wasn't widespread, they wouldn't fight so hard to include the term "Native". I once was fine with the term "Native Style", but see only belligerence, hostility and cultural colonialism in return. I have faced nothing but anger from the gatekeepers of the American Flute.
No more grey areas. Its gonna be black and white letter of the law now. No "Native" in non-native flutes. I see this misappropriating as a felony, as does the United States Government. These are like hate crimes when you are no longer ignorant.
Anyway, it seems easy to marginalize me, because I am only an Indian. What would we do with flutes anyhow? Yet, our Lifeways teach us to Relate, I relate to my People, they know my voice. With their help we will engage this issue fully until its ultimate resolution. I have been playing and making Siyotankas for a few years now. I have completed those things which a Lakota Man must, I am lawful, as we say. This will mean nothing to you, but is everything to us. I have been Lakota for going on 44 years, and I think that is seniority in a People whose Males live to be an average of 43.

Anyway, I am respnding here because my words were brought here. I am here to only inform and raise understanding. If you want to know more, feel free to join my Family (literally, my Family, Sisters, Brothers, Cousins, In-laws) to ask anything at all at:
http://lakota.ning.com

Also, the following is my latest blog:
Hau Mitakiepi,

Our Ehanni Stories teach us how to see the future, and also how to gauge where we are and where we are from. The “dominant” culture may not be able to take these stories seriously, because they are from “a stone age people who never invented the wheel” who would be better off just getting with society’s program.

Nevertheless, we hold these stories as our very Identity and Root. Ehanni literally means “way back long time ago” or “beginnings”. I have been thinking lately of the Ehanni Story concerning Eya, how he ate the Oyate, he swallowed us up. Iktomi even used violence to try and injure Eya, yet it was futile. The only things Eya(The Great Eater/Mouth/Consumer) feared were the Flute, Rattle and Drum. To defeat Eya, the Oyate had to play these instruments with Power and Authority.

We see here then that our route to Sovereignty and Freedom, our route out of the Belly of the Beast is not through violence, rather simply through the Voice of our Selves and our Ancient and Sacred Instruments and Knowledge through Relatedness. That the Siyotanka is our Waking Bugle is no surprise.

Regarding non-Indigenous flute makers seeking to continue the usurping and co-opting of our very Identity, in response to my recent blog “Time To Put The Native Back In The Native Flute”, a music professor from a prestigious university opined in part: “However, this is relevant, you can't legally sell sparkling wine and call it Champagne unless it is from the Champagne region of France. It seems to me that under the Native Arts and Crafts act, any non-native should be made to advertise that they were making "Native-Style" Flutes. I do understand that the "Native-Style Flute Society" sounds inelegant, but perhaps that name could be allowed to stand as long as vendors referred to their instruments as Native-Style.
There is no doubt that the sound of the flute is compelling and powerful. The nature of the scale makes it very easy for even a beginner to play something that sounds like real music. But this "facile-ness" is really the problem. It is the essence of what is wrong with all of the New Age approach. Yes, playing and listening to the flute can instill a feeling of peacefulness and perhaps an awakening to spirit, but most Westerners pursue these things for relief from stress, not development of character. Character is developed by hardship, and it is this recognition that is the essence of truly walking a spiritual path. Materialism is about pursuing money to have a comfortable, secure and "easy" life, but the spiritual cost and pain is great, hence the turn to yoga spas, etc. not to mention alcohol and drugs and other addictions. People will go to an Arizona yoga retreat, feel refreshed and then go back to the same insane life they just left, unchanged in their value structure. This is the whole problem with people adopting various ideas from native culture; they take the parts that are easy and make them feel good and forget the part about being called to walk in a sacred manner every moment of your life.”

What hasn’t been mentioned in any of this is the utterly Powerful, Authoritive, and Different Way the Siyotanka is meant to be played in comparison to the feeble voiced thing it has been made to become. It is a reflection of Lakota Masculinity. The Occupation cannot allow Lakota Masculinity to Bloom, Blossom and Bear Fruit. It must be shackled, detained, fenced and controlled.

The Siyotanka is played from the Belly, it is Power incarnate. By playing from the Belly of the Least, we will be freed from the Belly of the Beast.

Toksa Ake’

Wanbli WiWohkpe, he emacia pelo.

*P.S. for those who think the Flute to not be "Sacred", here is a link to the Ehanni Story I mention in my blog: http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/pla/sdo/sdo73.htm

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 1na·tive
Pronunciation: \ˈnā-tiv\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English natif, from Middle French, from Latin nativus, from natus, past participle of nasci to be born — more at nation
Date: 14th century
1: inborn , innate <native talents>
2: belonging to a particular place by birth <native to Wisconsin>
3archaic : closely related
4: belonging to or associated with one by birth
5: natural , normal
6 a: grown, produced, or originating in a particular place or in the vicinity : local b: living or growing naturally in a particular region : indigenous
7: simple , unaffected
8 a: constituting the original substance or source b: found in nature especially in an unadulterated form <mining native silver>
9chiefly Australian : having a usually superficial resemblance to a specified English plant or animal
10capitalized : of, relating to, or being a member of an aboriginal people of North or South America : native american
— na·tive·ly adverb
— na·tive·ness noun
synonyms native , indigenous , endemic , aboriginal mean belonging to a locality. native implies birth or origin in a place or region and may suggest compatibility with it <native tribal customs>. indigenous applies to species or races and adds to native the implication of not having been introduced from elsewhere <maize is indigenous to America>. endemic implies being peculiar to a region <edelweiss is endemic in the Alps>. aboriginal implies having no known race preceding in occupancy of the region <the aboriginal peoples of Australia>

James, I am sorry, but your words are filled with the Lakota feeling of being wronged. I am not saying that the peoples were not wronged, at a point in time, but rather that you have chosen to take the divisive road, in this time, and that is to me, counter productive.

Just as with everything, there is little that is unique to one people, as there is always sharing of information and ways from one people to another. That is especially so of "things". The Native way is one of culture and understanding, and not of "things".

I cannot agree with your position. Sorry. You are also wrong about the law. The law is quite clear, and I have read it in detail. It simply requires disclosure, of whether the maker is a registered tribal member, or recognized by a registered tribe, as a Native artisan. Misrepresentation, is all that the law addresses, and in general, the intent of the law was to prevent misrepresentation of antiquities, more so, than contemporary items. While it applies to contemporary items as well, it again, only addresses misrepresentation.

While it would appear that there was certainly some misrepresentation on ebay, as some of those selling there, were unable to substantiate their claimed tribal affiliations (which frankly is quite difficult to do, as I am very aware of, from trying to research my own), that is in fact, all the law addresses.

If you choose to take the path of resentment, and divisiveness, that is up to you, but there is really nothing to be gained, except bitterness. That is bad for you.

Perhaps I have little authority to speak here, but because I am a college teacher of humanities several of your comments struck me as significant and worthy of a response.

I confronted Odell Borg personally, he ended up telling the truth: he doesnt have any idea who his father was, no idea what nation, nothing.

Telling the truth, especially about oneself, is always the first step toward self-awareness and growth, but I'm left wondering about your intent. Is it to help a man on his journey to self-fulfillment, or is it to break him down and convince him he is nothing? I think here of Odysseus in Homer's Odyssey shouting futilely at the Cyclops monster that he is a "Nobody." Each of us can choose to play the hero or the monster.

Our Ehanni Stories teach us how to see the future, and also how to gauge where we are and where we are from. The “dominant” culture may not be able to take these stories seriously, because they are from “a stone age people who never invented the wheel” who would be better off just getting with society’s program.

Every culture has stories that serve exactly the same purpose. Every culture passes through a stone age. Every culture invents "the wheel" and sometimes reinvents it. As a teacher, I will agree with you that many people do not take these stories seriously enough, largely because they don't understand them. We are all teachers, then, in this respect: We can choose to play the hero and educate our audience, or we can choose to play the monster and shut ourselves away in a cave like the Cyclops.

We see here then that our route to Sovereignty and Freedom, our route out of the Belly of the Beast is not through violence, rather simply through the Voice of our Selves and our Ancient and Sacred Instruments and Knowledge through Relatedness. That the Siyotanka is our Waking Bugle is no surprise.

This is the route for everyone who is human. Everyone who seeks self-awareness and fulfillment must pass through the belly of the beast. We see it in story after story in every culture. Plato had his cave, Aeneas had his underworld, Dante had his Inferno, Jonah had his whale, even Indiana Jones had his pit of snakes to contend with. It's a test to see what we are made of, a test of our characters. Not all cultures rely on the Siyotanka for guidance, but they do all rely on something to pull them through ... a bear's tooth, a "magic" spear, a chalice--anything that helps them focus their energy and remember their purpose. Your image of the Siyotanka as a "Waking Bugle" is a wonderful one. All journeys to self-awareness begin with this waking call. Joseph Campbell documents this in every culture, including our own. Perhaps it is time for everyone to wake up and blow the bugle all at once. Maybe the bugle call you hear from outside the belly of the beast is your call to exit the belly of the beast. We learn from stories in every culture that we can't dwell there too long without negative effect.

a music professor from a prestigious university opined in part: “However, this is relevant, you can't legally sell sparkling wine and call it Champagne unless it is from the Champagne region of France.

You may, however, legally sell it as champagnoise methode--in the style or method of Champagne.

The nature of the scale makes it very easy for even a beginner to play something that sounds like real music. But this "facile-ness" is really the problem. It is the essence of what is wrong with all of the New Age approach. Yes, playing and listening to the flute can instill a feeling of peacefulness and perhaps an awakening to spirit, but most Westerners pursue these things for relief from stress, not development of character. Character is developed by hardship, and it is this recognition that is the essence of truly walking a spiritual path.

You know, I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point. But I do find it more than a bit insulting that you believe "Westerners" aren't interested in developing character and "truly walking a spiritual path," or that others haven't faced hardships in their lives. The heroes of every culture's stories certainly understand that trials are necessary to growth--but so is a period of quiet reflection. Many of us are simply at different places in our journeys. Believing otherwise is the result of dwelling too long in the belly of the beast. Have you stopped long enough to imagine that perhaps the Siyotanka's wake up call is asking you to join the rest of humanity?

What hasn’t been mentioned in any of this is the utterly Powerful, Authoritive, and Different Way the Siyotanka is meant to be played in comparison to the feeble voiced thing it has been made to become. It is a reflection of Lakota Masculinity. The Occupation cannot allow Lakota Masculinity to Bloom, Blossom and Bear Fruit. It must be shackled, detained, fenced and controlled.

Personally, I love recordings I have heard of this "traditional" way of playing. Every culture throughout recorded time, and most probably long before, has needed to provide an outlet for masculine energy. Today we have things like football and octagon fighting. Unfortunately--and here I'm also agreeing with you to a point--most people are content to sit and watch these events instead of participating. Of course, not all of us are born to tackle and fight, but there are many other ways to reflect on what it means to be a man and to be a part of the human animal. We could hike in the forest with our sons, for example. While I agree that we need outlets for expressing masculine energy, stories in every culture also convince us that this energy must be balanced against the requirements of humanity. Again, I think of Odysseus taunting the Cyclops in a futile effort to display his masculine prowess, while abandoning his responsibilities to his crew and endangering their lives. In the masculine world, there is only Odysseus to think about. Back home in Ithaca, there is also a wife and family to think about. In a completely masculine world, rape might be deemed acceptable. In a human world, it is not. Again, we must learn to exit the belly of the beast in order to see the human world clearly.

The Siyotanka is played from the Belly, it is Power incarnate. By playing from the Belly of the Beast, we will be freed from the Belly of the Beast.

Every culture teaches us that we must be freed from the belly of the beast. The inherent danger of dwelling there is that we risk becoming the beast. I have nothing but respect for you and where you are on your journey. My sincere hope is that we all hear the Siyotanka's wake-up call.

Geoffrey, the point you make here IS THE POINT! The flutes we make and play today are in my mind simply extensions, variations and imporvements of a musical instrament that evolved from many peoples of the world, not just America. When I first heard Nakai play and became interested in the flute, the last thing I though of was who were its originators and what were their cultural connection to this instrament. I just loved the sound it made and nothing more, with absolutely no disrespect. When I'm either making a flute or playing one I never harken back to the generations of makers or players, rather, I'm in the present completely disconnected from the flutes past. Making or playing the flute never takes me emotionally back to its history, I'm in the present and simply enjoying what this beautiful instrament does for me and through the flute I have also broaden my friendships with those who enjoy the flute as well.

Barry G

Welcome James,

I fully appreciate any other human being who is attempting to walk a spiritual path. On any level, that takes commitment and a willingness to endure difficult truths and real hardship.

However, you seem prone to making global assumptions about the type of non-native who might use the flute, and in your turn you seem to marginalize the spiritual connection that these players might have to the instrument. There is no objective, spiritual law about how this flute is supposed to be played ("What hasn’t been mentioned in any of this is the utterly Powerful, Authoritive, and Different Way the Siyotanka is meant to be played in comparison to the feeble voiced thing it has been made to become. It is a reflection of Lakota Masculinity. The Occupation cannot allow Lakota Masculinity to Bloom, Blossom and Bear Fruit. It must be shackled, detained, fenced and controlled."). The Lakota have not had this instrument for long. As has been mentioned already in this thread, this flute is most likely an adaptation of European woodwinds that the Natives of America were exposed to. They adapted it, used it for various purposes depending upon the tribe. If Lakota males began using it as a spiritual tool, that is a beautiful thing. The Lakota adapted an existing idea and made it serve their own purpose. Now, some members of the "dominant" culture are adapting an existing idea and making it serve their own purposes (which for many of us has a very spiritual side), and in most all cases doing so with respect toward the original adapters. How is this different? How are we so different?

You speak of "... non-Indigenous flute makers seeking to continue the usurping and co-opting of our very Identity...". Can a human beings identity be usurped and co-opted? I don't believe that it can. Our identity, culturally, spiritually and in all of the ways that matter, is part of our inner being. If our identity can be threatened by someone picking up an external object that we think belongs to us then our spiritual identity is weak and external.

"I once was fine with the term "Native Style", but see only belligerence, hostility and cultural colonialism in return. I have faced nothing but anger from the gatekeepers of the American Flute. No more grey areas. Its gonna be black and white letter of the law now. No "Native" in non-native flutes. I see this misappropriating as a felony, as does the United States Government. These are like hate crimes when you are no longer ignorant. Anyway, it seems easy to marginalize me, because I am only an Indian. What would we do with flutes anyhow? Yet, our Lifeways teach us to Relate, I relate to my People, they know my voice. With their help we will engage this issue fully until its ultimate resolution. I have been playing and making Siyotankas for a few years now."

I read this statement (quoted above) that you make and I don't see any clarity. You claim you were once fine with the term "Native Style" but you see only "belligerence, hostilitiy and cultural colonialism in return"... What does that mean? This just sounds like rhetoric divorced from meaning. Do you mean to say that you originally campaigned for the use of the term "Native Style" and that as a result of your efforts you were greeted with hostility and cultural colonialism? Who are the "gatekeepers" of the Native American flute and what does that mean?

You say that your lifeways teach you to "relate", and you relate to your People. Who are your people? Do you not try to relate to anyone else?

Much of what you say is what I would call inflammatory rhetoric--the language that politicians are inclined to use. Phrases that seem to carry emotional content but that don't withstand rational scrutiny. You say "no more grey areas...It's gonna be black and white letter of the law now". As Rick pointed out, the letter of the law is already enforced. I spoke with the Indian Arts and Crafts board and they were very clear about the law and nearly all of the flute makers out there are abiding by it. There are a handful of pretenders out there and they should be exposed and brought into compliance with the law. So if you want to campaign to change the laws then that is your right, but likening law-abiding flute makers who love the instrument and who are respectful of Native culture (not necessarily by your definition, but in their hearts) to perpetrators of hate crimes...well, that seems like the words of hate and divisiveness.

This entire thread is on the bleeding edge of the "No politics and no inflammatory rhetoric" rules of this site, but I've allowed it to carry on because this seems important. This site is about the Native American Flute (among other things), and because these "Native vs. non-Native" issues have been very topical recently (as a result of this whole ebay situation) I felt that there should be an exception made. However, I'm going to move it to the "Agree to Disagree" Forum so that folks who may not want to cope with politics may avoid it if they choose.