After replying to Penni's question about sanding the bottom of a saddle on one of her flutes I began to wonder.
In the year or so that I have been a member of this forum I remember reading on more than one occasion of someone having a flute with a voice that was not right~too buzzy or too soft or not tuned or ....

Often these flutes have been in the hands of someone who was/is fairly new to the flute and often times these flutes were shed from their collection one way or another or modified to conform.

I wonder how many of these flutes would have been treasured by collectors in the future as FBS (Flutes Before Standardization) Now I am not trying to open another discussion about the pro and cons of standardization rather about recognizing a treasure for it's historical importance.

For some this may not be important and I respect that relationship. I have made the effort to see the value/purpose in all of the flutes I have as they have been made. I have very few flutes made by other makers. A few of these I have had for quite a long time. There are some that just boggle my mind in terms of tuning/playability etc. But they were made this way and as such they have purpose.

In a thread about Anasazi flutes Kat mentioned a disruption in continuity (due to drought/conflict) when speaking about not having exact knowledge about how the flutes construction/finger placement was handed down. Consequently not much intact info about what an Anasazi flute was really like. I may not have interpreted this correctly so Kat please re-direct if needed.

With the resurgence of interest in this flute continuing to grow what can we do to maintain an accurate record for the future?

Penni Thanks for asking your question about sanding and please know that these questions I am asking are not a hidden way for me to say you are doing something that you should not.

Hawk, I am not sure exactly what you mean about keeping a record . . . but . . . For the record . . . Happy Belated Birthday Hawk!

I am consistently very bad about remembering birthdays, . . . . . . So . . . . . . .
My vintage "Flute Kid" card is for you and for all of our Portal Pals who turn a year older with the love of fluting in their hearts!

Hawk,
I Don't know if I've told this story here before but story repitition is an indulgence allowed the semi senile....Right?
At a pow wow in Florida, a friend who was a Boy Scout leader came to my booth with his troop and showed me a flute that was made with only a boy scout knife, learned from Ben Hunts book. It was a bit rough looking of course and when I played it it was , by todays standards, a bit breathy, buzzy, and "Grandfather" tuned. As soon as I started playing there was a regonition that for the first time I'd encountered a flute that was as close to original, the Old Flutes, as I was ever likely to come across. It was indeed a beautiful flute and i had a hard time putting it down, it had so much to say.

There would be no market, very little interst in this flute or it's song so if it is to be brought forth to future generations it would probably have to be made by the folks that had a flute in their history, playing it in the way it was originaly intended just for the simple reason that it was part of their culture.
A lot of Indian People had a flute in their past and lost it, lost it's songs to the winds. Some People have to go to museums to see what their ancesters played. If the folks that still have a hold on some of the flute's ways don't teach their kids then they will lose it too.
These days,what's left of the old style flute and it's songs can't be so much taken away as they can be given away.....
Kuz

Marsha you're kindness is beyond words! Thanks so much! Maple Syrup (only we know what this means )

After reading my post "Future Reference) I can see it was not so clear... Guess I was questioning that if the "Old" flutes that come into our posession are modified to conform to our present idea of what a flute should be then we (the public) are left with less of a whole picture (record)...

Still not clear...let me try in another way

During the summer one of the local restaurants has a band playing music from the 40's and 50's as well as a car show featuring cars from this era also. Some fantastic machines from all over the state converge for the show. I love old cars so a few times went to have a close look at them. I was very surprised to learn that many of them were so modified that only externally did they resemble the old car they once were...

Hey Kuz whaddya mean semi
Couldn't agree more about giveaway!
I have not been to sucsessful articulating the questions that arose after replying to Penni's post about modifying her flute.

Imagine if the old flutes which are in museums were modified to conform to our standard today. We would no longer have a record of the flutes progress. Now we know this will never happen but if the old flutes that are in the publics posession continue to get modified how will it effect the public record?

This is the third attempt to express the question... (see Kuz's statement of senility above )

Ok Hawk, that helps!
I feel that if a knowledgeable flute enthusiasts/collector were to get their hands on a truly "old" flute, that they would in no way alter that flute. *It is, . . . what it is!*

However, since there are literally thousands of folks who are, and have been "attempting" to make flutes, there are oodles of them that do not have the proper tools and knowledge to make a flute that is actually playable. Many of the flutes that I am seeing and hearing about simply need a tad bit of tweaking, and these flutes are being crafted by some folks who have only made a flute or two and have just begun their journey. Gosh, look what a world of difference it made for Tom to get a few helpful hints from his pals on the portal . . . and his flutes turned out excellent! Way to go Tom!!!

I ran into the "This flute needs tweaking" scenario twice at Musical Echoes!

A guy from "out west" who came to the festival showed us his truly beautiful hand crafted flute one evening when several of us were playng flutes and chatting in the courtyard of the hotel! It was indeed a beauty, but it was grossly airy and all I did was hold it up to the bright light and show him that there was a hefty gap under his block and that all he needed to do was flatten both surfaces to have the proper air flow. He showed his flute to several of the flute makers and they confirmed that for him also! Don't laugh, but I always travel with sandpaper, and . . . I gave him some of my sandpaper the next day and he set off to tweak his flute with the help of a couple of the flute makers! Mission accomplished!

There was also a gal at the festival that showed me her "Terrible Branch Flute". Well, I am not a flute maker, but I have sure looked under the hood (as Ed says) and I could figure out in a heart beat why this flute would not play. Seriously, this cute little branch flute was constructed in a way that allowed no air flow at all.
I suggested that my friend take her flute to Utah's tent and show it to him . . .and . . . Eureka! Utah had her flute singing sweetly in about 15 minutes!

Yes, I certainly hope that most flute folks will recognize a "vintage" flute when they see one! If not, then this Flute Portal is one of the best places on the planet to ask questions, show photos, and get great answers!!!

Hi Marsha,
You presented the "tweaking" situation very well but for me, as a flute maker, I just have a blanket policy not to work on other's flutes.
Imagine this scenario:
In an old antique shop up in Maine you come across one of Hawk Henries original flutes. You get it home and find it doesn't play quite the way YOU would want it to so you bring it to another maker and it gets "tweaked" retuned and revoiced.
In the meantime, poor ole Hawk has Crossed and is finaly getting the recognition he deserves as a flute maker, player and all around good guy.
Now, what would you want to have from Hawk, a very early creation of his, or one that had been brought up to your standards?
There was another Hawk, very well known in the flute making world, who's flutes are cherrished and every now and again someone gets it in their head that tweaking one of these would be a good idea, thus erasing a cool part of the modern history of this instrument.
Just my take but I hope it's close to addressing the original question
Kuz

Kuz, point well taken and understood, but . . . the first flute I mentioned was still in the hands of it's creator, and the other flute was brand new and could not be played at all until Utah gently tweaked it enough to allow air flow.

Sorry Marsha, I was just using you to try to make a bit of a point.

Kuz Exactly!
I have one of Hawks early flutes made sometime in the 80's and when it came to me it clearly had been modified (more than once).

"I feel that if a knowledgeable flute enthusiasts/collector were to get their hands on a truly "old" flute, that they would in no way alter that flute. *It is, . . . what it is!*"

Marsha I agree with you here. My thought is that there are so many NEW flute folks they may not know the difference between an "OLD" flute and one made by someone with less refined skills.

Yes, I agree with you too, and that, my friend, . . . is just another fine reason to fully appreciate this Flute Portal! The more folks that know about the Portal, the more information can be shared, and hopefully . . . many "old" flutes will be saved from being altered!

Agreed

I love how we seem to always put "old" as in "old-style" flutes in quotation marks. Why do we do that? I guess it's because they're still being made, but it still strikes me funny.

I see your point exactly Hawk........

If it has historic value it should be left as is. If it is an older flute that may be suffering some neglect, I do not see a problem of bringing back to playable condition ie: flattening a warped block or sealing a crack.

I see two things here: Ed, what you are talking about is taking an old flute and restoring it to its original condition. That's important. Restoring the flute would be recognizing its value as an old flute.

I think Kuz is talking about altering the original to make it more modern sounding. Altering the flute would be like saying the old sound is wrong and we have to fix it. That does not show value for the flute.

Maybe a bit off topic...but...I have a few flutes in my collection that play, "less than perfectly" to my "trained" western ear. This irritated me for a while. Since being a member of the Flute Portal, I've become aware that it is more important to me to "un-train" my ear in order to broaden my horizons. Someone posted a comment here not too long ago, where they stated that a less talented flute player could make a $1000 flute sound poorly, while a talented flute player could take even the poorest flute, find a song in it, and make it sound beautiful. I have chosen to work to become the latter of the two. Now... I don't have any old flutes, but I do have a few that are challenging to play. What I've noticed lately is that these "challenging" flutes require that I pay more attention to what I am doing...especially when it comes to breathe control. I'm learning how to half-hole more comfortably, and control overblowing so I can use it effectively depending on the style or sound that I'm looking for at any given moment. Hopefully, these challenging flutes will eventually make me a better flute player regardless of the flute that I'm playing. As far as Grandfather tuning goes...I am still really looking forward to building my own flute based on my anatomical proportion. This flute will most certainly have a sound unique to itself...but it will be "my" sound, and I will enjoy looking for "my" song that will be in it. I know it will be a very spiritual experience for me, and everyday I am coming closer to being worthy of that experience. Sometime you gotta slow down and look backwards before you can move ahead...Peace...
Tom

Aha, new vs old tuning. What a topic.
Just the other day I showed pictures of the dragon flute I had just made.
Yep, made it for myself, so, I tuned it the way I wanted. No concert tuning.
I wanted a special ancient voice and sound from it. Why would I want
such an instrument to sound like any other thousands of new "correctly"
tuned flutes. I wanted it to growl, to cry and wail. I wanted it to sound
a little coarse, a little like an ancient flute. I got what I wanted, and no amount
of money could make me tune it now as most makers and players would demand.
It seems odd, but likely a half of the flutes I make, I must force myself to concert
tune them. But, I can't keep all the flutes I would like to leave rough tuned.
Makes me wonder if there is any market for flutes tuned the "old" way?

Can't say how big a market, but I'm aiming to get at least one. I just found out the music appreciation professor at my college does a segment on NAF. She asked if I would give a brief performance next semester--could become a twice yearly deal. Since she talks a bit about the "evolution" of the flute, I'd like to be able to demonstrate both old and new.

I haven't had any old flutes come into my hands, and but when an unknown flute arrives, as it does on occasion, I honour the voice it has.
And, you all know how I feel about grandfather tuning. I'm slowly working on having a collection of "unique" flutes, each with a voice, a song and a story. I'm keeping a couple of my concert tuned "manufactured" babies for others to play when they want to try a flute.
The way I see it, each flute has a personality that is best reflected in its true voice. The tweaked voice may be beautiful, too, but it will never be the best that the wood has to offer.
Just my take...
Pat

Wonderful topic Hawk...
I don't have really an answer. I think it depends of the relationship you have with the flute,
the spirit you feel in it, and how you receive it, from your own spirit.
... Well, it's not really clear, so let me tell you a short story:

I was living in France, making flutes since one year or so,
straight ones from plain wood, as a full beginner,
when my wife bought me a flute on the web.
A branch flute.
I was already interested in these odd instruments,
and I was really happy, waiting impatientely the postmann.
This flute would be treasured, as the sacred thing It should be.
...A flute from a tree branch !!!

...Well, I received it, and it was the most delicate, sweet little thing of the world.
Something to be proud of.
...Then , I tried to play it.... Goodness, the sound was the worst one I've ever heard.
No the raspy, coarse or vibrating sound some flutes have,
but a plain airy, weak, poor sound...
The top hole was even so airy that it gave not note at all.
Well, as a new flutemaker, I tried to check everything on the flute that could cause that,
and everything was OK, at least regarding the accidental occurences :
No leak and a flat bottom bird.
...I quickly discovered the TSH was too big...
A way too big ! And the cutting edge done without care.

I started to have strange feelings,
remembering the sweet, clear soundfile I heard before to receive the flute,
this soundfile who visibly didn't come from this flute...
Remembering the words of the flutemaker saying the flute was made the old way,
voiced like the old ones did... Hmmmm...
I was so surprised, in the wrong direction, that the relationship with the flute was broken then.
Impossible for me after to come back to it.

But !... I was caught at the very first moment I saw this thing...
Caught by the branch, by this sweet curved thing telling me "hey, I'm still alive !"
A few weeks after, I took a plane to Missouri, and with my brother John,
we started to make branch flutes.

One year later, and this is my answer to this topic,
after many branch flutes done, I retrieved the delicate, bad sounding flute,
and reworked it completelly, sound holes, bird, flue, tuning...
And made it sounding like it should.... Clear, bold, alive !
Guess what, it get a fantastic warble...

Good and bad together.

Jan I agree with your observation. My original thoughts/ question in this thread are about your second statement ...

At a flute circle I met a man,Steve Bliven, who through lots of legwork/effort gathered old recordings of flute. Much of this was from wax cylinders some from the late 1800's.
What do you all think about a place on the forum dedicated to pictures and sound clips of old flutes...a window to the past?
If there is interest and Geoffrey/Jeff feel it appropriate I'll see about permission to post some of those old recordings.

I'm all for it! I'd love to hear these recordings! The only old recording of a flute that I've ever heard is Belo Kozad from around 1928, I believe. Haunting. Getting to hear them would go a long way to help me "un-train" my Western trained ear, and open myself to new possibilities...I love seeing photos of the old flutes too...this could be an awesome reference for anyone interested in old flutes/flute music...Peace...
Tom

Agreed, I was trying to make that point too but I guess not very well . Actually, I wouldn't go as far as "restoring" but would stop at returning it to playable and sustainable condition. I would not advocate for changing the voicing either.

I feel that a major part of the charm of any handmade instrument is the voice that the maker gave it.

I agree. Would we take some of the old paintings of Monet and "fix" them because they weren't right?!

I don't think so!!!!

Please do!!! There is no better place than this forum to
preserve these pictures and sound clips.



What do you all think about a place on the forum dedicated to pictures and sound clips of old flutes...a window to the past?
If there is interest and Geoffrey/Jeff feel it appropriate I'll see about permission to post some of those old recordings.
[/quote]

and because of your clarity and care, you have stories of wisdom to share.
Wopila.

maaaaan... another post I get to read right off this morning that makes my coffee taste better. Pilamiyawelo.

Me, I like the quote: "Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire."- Gustav Mahler. So I say bury or burn the old flutes and post the sound of them being played by their People for everyone to hear.

Always good to hear from THE spokesman of ALL the Native people...
Kuz

Ok James you got me thinking with this reply. Thinking there is much more to this. However I would rather not reply to what I read. Instead I will ask for clarification...

That would be LOVELY, if permission could be obtained, and thank you so much for offering. Matching the songs to museum photos would breathe life back into the flutes for us.

When I was young, I still remember how we would burn someone's things when they passed away. Much like our Language, our personal items are a reflection of our path in life. Once, our very clothes were made by those who loved us. They were made in the Wintertime while the Youth were taught our Stories. The Women Relatives of a Man would make his clothes for him. These clothes were replete with the Man's entire Identity coded into the very design. They were quite personal. So too our personal items. So to give something away was very Powerful. Our very "economy" was a gift based economy.

Now, when I see the old museum/collection piece I am struck by the utter disconnect. really. Just as if we lose the ability to Live in a way which warrants the use of our Language, so too do we simply lose the connection to these items and they become trophies more than anything else. therein lies why I quit selling art also.

I have seen things "put back" into the Earth that museums would think of great value. I have also seen things from museum's returned to People and that Person's Life change due to a reconnection of Identity. There was a Story that came along with this item, this item being a Rattle. The Story caused that Rattle to stay alive. The Story of the Siyotanka is a Story the Lakota have. I see from talking with other Indigenous People that the Flute is also integral to other Nations. I would suppose it far more expedient to share the examples of Voice along with photos of the flutes than to worry or even care of their physical existence.
Hecetuwelo. Wanbli WiWohpe
Maga Ska Tiospaye Ikce Wicasa

James,
Thanks for this answer. There are teachings here and at the very least, things for folks to ponder. Your last answer was vague and came across as angry words from an angry man and many missunderstood your point.
Many Nations had the custom of burying or burning one's possesions with them when they crossed and I had always thought it was the main reason that there is little physical evidence of the early flutes. The flute being such a personal possesion would have most definatly been sent off with the one who played it, makes sense.
Not being Indian, my opinion doesn't matter much but I for one am appriciative of the surviving old flutes and love hearing the Old Songs...
Kuz

Well spoken Kuz, and thank you James for filling us in on the "taking it with you" information.

Communicating via the written word is certainly not always an easy task, but it would help quite a bit James, if you gave more explanations and perhaps more enlightening history with some of your thoughts that often do appear rather harsh at first glance!

I do not use the term "passed" since the teachings of Thanatology highly encourages people to stay away from using euphemisms about death.
I was also taught to respect everyone's personal beliefs on this subject matter! However . . . when I die . . . I have it in writing that a pack of cigarettes, a jar of salsa, and a very special item that is only importance and of value to me, will be joining me in the crematorium . . . and then sprinkled upon the earth, but in regard and respect to my flutes . . . they will not be burnt or buried . . . they will indeed be . . . passed on!

When my dog died I buried him with his favorite toy, a biscuit, and his blanket! My father is buried with a few coins in his pocket, the newspaper that contains his obituary (for him to read), and he is wearing his favorite tennis shoes with his handsome gray suit! There are probably a significant amount of Non Native folks that are very eclectic and practice a tad bit of the "Native Ways" when it comes to many aspects of our life and death, but . . . It would be my preference to see generations of flutes handed down so that the music within the flute, and it's story, . . . may continue on!

There is a gentleman in my area who has several of his Great Grandfather's Cherokee flutes, and he views them as a tremendously precious connection to his family, . . . certainly not a trophy!
Many of us revere hand crafted items such as flutes, and other works of art as an extention of the person that created them!

Otherwise James, I am in partial agreement with some of your philosophy in that;

"To live in the hearts we leave behind, is not to die." -Thomas Campbell!

Marsha,
You owe me a slap next time we meet for my guesswork in regard to that "very special item"
Kuz

Wooo Hoo, Marsha, now I can guess what it is, too!

The first thing I thought after reading your statement was: "If you meet Buddha on the road, kill him." After reading your clarification, I don't think your underlying point is the same, but like the Buddhist koan, the real meaning isn't what it seems to be on the surface.

Hau Desiree, I believe I have read multiple posts of yours which I found very thoughtful. This one is too. I will say, my statement both is and isn't what it means on the surface. As a Lakota, it surely is not shocking or surprising to suggest burying or burning something. It is a sign of respect and understanding, even closure. So, my words are simply as I say. Yet, my words seem to go beyond the surface of what maybe "general culture" may perceive as shocking or surprising.
Thanks for helping me learn.

Greetings all -

Just my luck, I sign onto the forum and it goes quiet.... Anyhow, I wanted to add some to Hawk's kind words above.

As Hawk mentions, I have managed to gather digital versions of some 200 flute songs recorded roughly between 1880 and 1950. (Because I really like their playing, I extended the arbitrary 1950 date to include several recordings by Richard Fool Bull and Dan Red Buffalo, the marvelous Lakota flute makers and players who recorded some material in the 1950s.) Most of these came from museum/library/archive recordings on media no longer used such as wax cylinders, wire recordings, aluminum discs, etc. My original thought was to set up a web site to host the recordings for all to share.

However, as I worked through the material I discovered that there was little in the way of field notes that survived and consequently there was no way to know whether the songs were private/personal songs, ceremonial/sacred songs, or social songs for sharing. It is not at all clear whether those playing the songs in the late 19th century and early 20th century had any idea that 100 years later someone outside their culture might have access to their songs and playing. The players intent may not have been to widely share the private/personal or ceremonial/sacred songs.

I also discovered that there is at least some level of concern among the Native community about whether such material should be made widely available. The descendants of one of the players, when contacted about the idea of posting it indicated that they did not want their grandfather's playing made public "because we have given the Whites too much already."

Consequently, because I have only a limited knowledge of the cultural beliefs related to flute music and performance during that time period - and no real way to find out about it - I've held off in dissemination of the recordings. Presently I'm working with an audio engineer to "clean up" the recordings a bit - removing the hiss and pops that the early techniques added to the the recordings while trying to keep the ambient sounds of dogs barking, voices talking, children crying etc. And I'm trying to find a suitable archive for the material. Because I'm getting to be an old guy and am doing this with my own funding, I'll leave it to others to sort out the cultural issues and the concepts of intellectual property in this sort of situation.

Some of this material, however, is commercially available. There is a list of the commercially available recordings I've come across at www.flutekey.com/htm/discography.htm Many of these can be downloaded as individual MP3 tracks rather than having to buy the tape or disc. There are also a couple of recordings at www.amphilsoc.org/library/sounds/ (although I suspect they are mislabeled and should be listed as Blow Snake/Sam Carly/Sam Blow Snake). Dr. Oliver Jones at Wild Horse Mountain Flutes www.wildhorsemtnflutes.com/ uses an early recording by the Cheyenne player Turkey Legs as background for his home page. These should provide a taste of what some of the early flute recordings sound like without getting me in spiritual, cultural - or legal trouble.

Part of this project has also been to develop a list of locations where "early flutes" are housed in museums or other archives. The preliminary listing is at www.whitecrowflutes.com/historical.htm Two other sources are the above mentioned Wild Horse Mountain Flutes where Dr. Jones has provided many photos. Also Russ Wolf has produced two CDs (available through the Oregon Flute Store and probably other places) of photos of the collection of Dr. Richard Payne (now sadly dispersed) and the Library of Congress' Dayton C. Miller collection.

If any of you have any additional information to add about flutes in archives or historic recordings, please contact me either through this forum or directly at steve(dot)bliven(at)comcast(dot)net with my thanks in advance for any and all input.

So there's some stuff about the "older flutes" of interest to me at least. Apologies for making my initial post so lengthy.

Best wishes.

Steve

Thanks for adding that info, Steve, and welcome to our forum.

Thanks Steve,
There are some who very much appreciate your efforts.
Welcome to the Portal, some good folks here....
Kuz

Hau Mr. Steve Bliven. I believe the World itself needs to hear as much of that Music as possible. By giving that Music Voice, you would awaken a Native Flute Renaissance.
Wanbli WiWohpe
Elk Dreamer/Lakota Nation.

Hi Steve.. i'm sure we'd all like to hear the material you've gathered if/when it's do-able.

the Shawnee Indian museum here has just aquired some flutes from a small museum out in Kansas that they're going to put on display in May/June. I'm going to try to get some pics and info when they're available. not really sure how old they'll be but it might be interesting.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the info and welcome to the forum! I'll e-mail soon about the flute gathering you and George are putting together.

Jim maybe the museum would let you play those old flutes...wouldn't hurt to ask.

Jim -

If they will, and some museums will indeed let you touch and breath into old flutes, I'd be delighted to send along a form that I've been using to attempt to gather data on the old flutes in a systematic manner - consists of some basic general descriptions, measurements, and pitch of scale the flute plays. My experience is that the museums appreciate getting this sort of data for their records and it may be a way to get your foot in the door.

Best wishes.

Steve

Welcome to the forum Steve. I look forward to hearing some of these old recordings. There really seems to be an interest in recapturing the old sound.

dd

Wonderful initial post Steve. And thanks to share your project with us.
That sounds really, really great.
I was reading the pdf from the whitecrow website, listing the old flutes in museums,
and I wanted to say I've seen three flutes in an Oklahoma museum, years ago.
In the Gilcrease museum.
These flutes were not shown to public,
but available to look at in the basement, where they store all kind of objects and archives in drawers.
I was unable to take pics at this time, but it would be interesting to try.
One flute, especially, was special: It was made with a lathe, but dated very old.
I would like to return there and gather more infos.

Kuz, I'm presuming that you're talking about a Hawk Littlejohn flute. I hereby suggest that anyone found guilty of 'tweaking' one of those should be turned over to Tootie and she will be charged with whacking him/her to death with her whacking flute.

Such an offense would be comparable to the retouching of Michaelangelo's Sistine Chapel frescoes after his death. The nudes were painted over and were not restored to their original state for a couple hundred years.

A masterpiece should never be tampered with.

I had an opportunity to play one of HL's flutes last summer. To my tastes, it had a lot of back pressure, but it had a nice voice and definate character. It was it's owner's prize possession; and I think rightly so.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about our Hawk: Hawk Henries--flute maker and player extraordinaire! Hawk lives up in Maine, which is where Kuz placed the imaginary antiques shop where the flute is found...

You're both right! He's talking about both Hawks!

And, Roger, I have my whacking flute ready!!