Hau, I have been waiting to see the pic of this whistle advertised by "Birdtribe" in the classified ads section of this website thusly :

"Hello my friends,

I'm selling a very old pueblo Indian Bone whistle that was unearthed in New Mexico. It's in perfect condition for it's age with no damage. It's 4-1/4", 3 holes, I'm not sure what kind of bird bone it is. It has a windy soft voice that sounds like a bird. I will sell for $250

it's hard for me to get pics but I'll do my best. It's in perfect condition

Peace be with you"

This post keeps coming to mind for a few reasons. The first being it was "unearthed". I posted about a raid by the feds on graverobbers in Utah recently, but is was deleted by the administrator. To trade in artifacts can be illegal. There is a federal act called NAGPRA which is an acronym for Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act.

Also, selling eagle bones is illegal.

It doesn't seem much provenance is available for this "Indian Bone whistle" being advertised here at fluteportal.com, and I caution people to be aware of what they are doing. Even possessing certain articles like these can be a federal felony, not so hard to prove when leaving an e-trail.

I am in agreement with you James.
I do not have the time right at the moment to discuss this in depth but there are other issues that might be considered certainly legality is one but I also feel that there are some ethical issues to be looked at.

Birdtribe~please do not feel like you are causing a problem -one already exists...this just gives us the opportunity to explore and discuss...

I would heed James' caution!

Good Point James and Hawk, It certainly begs for more clarification/explanation and a degree of caution.

Best,
Ed

Agree

Yes indeed, I totally agree with You All as well. Many Blessings...Robert

Hi all, I just seem to be the carrier of this sacred object at the current moment. It was legally found and purchased. It seems ALUAKI is interested in trading with me and spirit has planned this perfectly. It should go back to the original blood and tradition of the Pueblo people. Peace be with all beings

Not too sure about this.
Archaeological digs (grave robbers/pot hunters with a PHD:) are still a grey area for me, but then again it's not my grandparents bones being played with.

Guess the plus side would be that so many tribes lost so much so fast that many people know little about there own ways and the digs can help some there.

Selling artifacts....regardless of the source is what encourages illegal digs and for this reason it has to be banned. It's the same with feathers. Though most that have them came by them in a good way if there were no laws, birds would be hunted to non existence.

James, I'm in your corner on this one...
Kuz

I'm Sure that the Moab Museum would be happy to care for it ( properly ).
Not just for all our ancestors, and us, but for the children. It belongs to the future. Please think of this.

"The best things in life or free. When given freely, it's given with love. Love is the only thing that we can take with us when we die."
Evan.

Hi everyone,

The bone whistle is going to a good brother ALUAKI. We made a good exchange. I don't believe it would do any good to see it locked up in a museum of any sort. It's going to the right being who will use it with respect and prayer. May peace be with all of you,

It's a shame that the public has lost the opportunity to learn from such a treasure.

It's a sad day in the flute world.

Well I think it is in very good hands with Aluaki, since the flute probably belongs to one his pueblo ancestors. He can use it to educate people about his tribe and ancient culture.
So I think it is a happy day, but just my opinion. Flutes should be handed down from generation to generation as they once did a long time ago. Glad it is in the hands of the Jemez pueblo people again.

Take good care of it Aluaki.

Those questions are difficult. I was also wondering whether this thing was legally allright. I understand now it is in this case. Nevertheless... trading with archeological artifacts is a problem not only here but all over the world. Trade has caused many, many valuable (I do not mean $$ but other values) cultural remains to dissapear for both science and for the people whose cultural heritage it is. Ideally, such things should come in the care of a museum or institution, preferably one which is closely connected to the culture/region.

Please do not take this as a personal criticism to you Birdtribe, I do not criticise you, but rather the legislation in many countries and refer to a great problem. I have been working in connection to archaelogical research a number of years, as well as met the problem in my present work meeting differnt cultures having lost their heritage to sometimes that same institutions but more often through commercial traders.

We should all be aware of the problem.

Thank you Aluaki for stepping up with open hands and open heart.
May the songs of your ancestors sing with you.

Agree with you Evan. I had not understood ALUAKI's background. The flute remaining with its people is the best solution.

HI everyone,
Just to let you all know, NAGPRA does not apply to anything found on private lands, and the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act does not apply to eagles that died before 1940. NOT saying that its right that people dig up archaeological sites for the sale of these sacred objects, I've seen it done many times, right in front of me. At least now it will be back to where it belongs and used the way they are supposed to. There are plenty of eagle bone whistles in Museums today, and I'm sure a great many in their basements. We still use these types of whistles. Since I don't know where it was dug up, I can't take it back, it will just probably get dug up again. So I leave you all with this, Eagle Bone whistles are sacred to us all, and I am very glad that this particular whistle is coming home.

I am grateful that creator has brought you to this site.
I have stood in the desert to see a seagull fly over my head. I know he's is lost, cause the wind has brought him here.
He is in a strange place, and will find his way home.
Take care my Brother, May you sing with the wind.

If I found such a reclic, boy....well I'm close enough to call the local Tribal Counsel.

I didn't mean to create such a stir on the forum. I was just going with my intuition when I received the bone whistle and Aluaki responded to the call. To have such a beautiful sacred object locked away in the grips of the system wouldn't do the spirit of humanity any good. We are reaching the end of a cycle here on earth. The systems and government we have created will serve us no longer and they will fall. Laws were put here to control us and take away our souls. A new paradigm is here based on spirit and oneness. The government and media doesn't exist in my life because I create my own reality. The same spirit runs through all of us and it's our birth given right to be free of law. I'm grateful that the sacred bone whistle is going to an indigenous wisdom. May all beings find happiness
ry

I don't usually say much in regards to things like these because I am maybe not so educated on laws and such. But I do know gut instinct, and mine say's this did not belong in some institution where it would never sing again or feel the spirit of someones hands who will give it the respect and love it needs.
I think this was a "good trade" and the spirits are happy with it.....
(just my 2 cents.....)
Beth

Good. That is where it belongs.

quote name='Birdtribe' date='Sep 3 2009, 05:32 AM' post='43291']
Hi everyone,

The bone whistle is going to a good brother ALUAKI. We made a good exchange. I don't believe it would do any good to see it locked up in a museum of any sort. It's going to the right being who will use it with respect and prayer. May peace be with all of you,
[/quote]

Good. That is where it belongs. BUT, you still engaged in a transaction rather than just returning it. Whether or not you believe in your government, you engaged in the commerce of potentially illegal goods, and it is an e-trail the feds can easily follow right to you, Birdtribe.

quote name='Birdtribe' date='Sep 3 2009, 05:32 AM' post='43291']
Hi everyone,

The bone whistle is going to a good brother ALUAKI. We made a good exchange. I don't believe it would do any good to see it locked up in a museum of any sort. It's going to the right being who will use it with respect and prayer. May peace be with all of you,[/quote]

I don't know if this would be considered a controversial viewpoint or not, but I've always been interested in archaeology (I've taken some classes in it, been on a few digs, visited several museums, ect.) so I'd like to throw my two cents in.

Where I live, there are several large earth mounds where a tribe of native americans used to live. It's a park now, with a museum in the center of it. The museum has lots of amazing artifacts, But the museum also owns a warehouse that has literally thousands of unorganized artifacts stored in cardboard boxes that haven't been opened in about 50 years. This has always driven me crazy, no one will probably ever see or enjoy the wealth of history in that warehouse.

I was also on a dig once were there was a very interesting looking artifact sticking out the side of our square hole. But since it didn't completely fit inside our "grid," we had to leave it there and it just got reburied when we filled our hole back in.

Things like this made me completely loose respect for archaeology and gave me an appreciation for "treasure hunters." And by treasure hunters, I don't mean grave robbers. I mean people that search legally for artifacts because they enjoy unearthing bits of the past. I would much rather have an artifact in the hands of a collector, where it will get appreciated, taken care of, and shown around to their friends and like-minded enthusiasts then have it put in a box and thrown in a warehouse never to be seen again or worse.

I am sure then that it will sing for you in the way it was ment by its maker!

Once again I find myself agreeing with James.
It's not prudent to assume that your e-mails are not important enough to be monitored by the Feds.
This I can tell you is a fact..ALL NATIVE AMERICAN ORIENTED SITES ARE SCREENED!
This is especially true after the Patriot Act (just love that name) was inacted.
Again, I know this from a direct source and though you might not get a knock on your door for talking Feathers, Bones and the such, you could. Fighting the Feds, no matter how wrong they may be is at the very least a very expensive ordeal
Kuz

Hi all,

Just wanted to clarify to everyone that I didn't find the bone whistle myself and It was legally collected from a private site in New Mexico. It seems that some miss information has been spread around without actually knowing the real facts. So yes it is legal to posses in the eyes of our government. I apologize if I stirred up any touchy emotions, but after all were here to enjoy life and laugh like children, not like serious adults. Blessings,

Is it an Eagle bone whistle?

Just got back from a camping trip, or I would have jumped in before.
Are you all REALLY REALLY sure that this whistle is the real deal? Reason I ask, is that there sure are a lot of "extremely rare " bone whistles for sale on eBay, right now, and over the last two years that I have been fluting. They look really easy to make, and bone is not hard to find in the desert. IMO, the "real deal" would not be sold in that way, nor would it go so cheaply. Any SW museum would be thrilled to have an authentic bone whistle in their collection, and at the sort of eBay prices I have seen. I think all of you are getting worked up over nothing. Sorry.

I, on this matter have a new opinion. I had the opportunity to hear a 3 million dollar Stradivarius Violin today in the "Grotto".
It was alive... I now have faith that it should be where it is.
that is all i have to say, It found it's way home.

I don't suppose we have quite as much to disagree about. all in all, as we have to agree about.

I forgot to mention. That Violin was made in the 1600s, Thats why it cost so much and needs to be played.
My concern was the whistle is priceless, but yet it needs to sing.
thank you thats all.

Actually James, we agree a whole lot more than I might let on but it would be a very boring world if everyone agreed, don't you think?
Kuz

I been thinking of what you said here since I read it. I must say, I can surely see the value and health of a consensus based Tiospaye. Of course, consensus is hard to reach any more, but I can feel it in my Tiospaye. We tend to thinbk alike, and there is a degree of telepathy, it even seems. I can see that although they tell us we were at "constant war", I can see by the refinement of our clothing, Canunpas, Flutes, even storytelling, that we were in a state of almost constant peace.
Yet, I can see in nature, the need for "conflict", and the cycle of things. Death brings Life. Life brings Death. Peace brings War. Truly, it seems, even War can bring Peace.

So I still dont know how to answer.
Toksa

You speak words of wisdom James.

ALUAKI is a good guy, he'll make sure it is taken care of properly.

I will definitely take care of it. I just hope it's the real deal. I will determine that when I receive it.

Heck, it aint even about whether you would or wouldn't "take care of it".
I know when I am faced with such things, the way I was taught to "take care of it" is to bury it in an undisclosed location like they buried Crazy Horse, so they wouldn't dig him up. We have signs posted by the streams here on this Rez warning those who do come looking to dig something up that it is a fed crime to disturb such things. I once forced a guy I personally caught here with an arrow straightener and a leg bone of some sort to throw them into the River. He didn't want to, but he ended up having to do it.
Toksa

I am glad someone at least read my post...and it is my good friend Aluaki! I am not sure you will be able to tell, if it is actually made from an old bone. But logic seems on the side of it being a fake, since so many are posted on eBay, now and over the last several years, at least. Right now, there is one from Kentucky, a Mimbres whistle and a Nazca whistle. There are always some, every time I have looked. Either the ancestors were really clumsy and dropped all their precious things (NOT!) or very forsighted and kind enough to make and distribute a bunch of them for folks in future times.........also likely NOT.

Birdtribe, this is nothing against you...you were just victimized by still another eBay "Slick Willie".