Just was thinking as I perused some of my favorite posts from the past. I go back and re-read some of the things that were said about me in this agree to disagree section, when I initially arrived here. I also like to read the Iya story, how it was posted, poked a little fun at, etc. I began to realize, this is connected to the recent flute circle rules thread and its "problems".

It is probably mis-communication.

In our way, we MUST have someone who causes us to look at all sides of things, a sort of King Lear's jester, who can and will say it like it is, usually comically. This person is not only integral, but obliged to say these things. It causes us to take our time, to even "hijack the thread", as we sit together. It allows us to get to know each other. It allows us to be comfortable and find happiness in our doings. To others, we are probably wasting valuable time.

Likewise, when things are said publicly, and left that way, where and who I am from, take that as those words still being "in effect".

So, I can say that I do know that most of my drive to change things comes simply from how I was initially perceived, and I suppose, continue to be perceived. My drive comes from things that were written about me, or our Stories. Some would call it holding a grudge, maybe it is too. I would say it is "staying focused" cause no handshakes were offered either way. I will say, if we could have come togehter and simply agreed to call it quits, I would have abided that. Yet, I suppose I was most guilty for perpetuating things, as I knew how to get things to a point of unity and didn't, cause I would "lose ground."


I cannot help but think, if we could have communicated better, healthier, and maybe came to public terms with each other, things would be better and healthier now. Mis-communication. Seeing things from only our specific cultural perspectives. It is the way of "diversity", I suppose. Anyway, I just thought I would share these thoughts.

Wanbli WiWohpe.

James ... Regardless of how you were initially perceived, I believe your voice is a healthy one in this community. I've learned much from you and to also seek balance in presenting my own views. Thanks.

Opening the mind to discussion, is a healthy thing. Without someone to prompt us to see another viewpoint, we will seldom attain enlightenment of views we may have, that do not serve us well.

While that may not change the world, it may help the world get along better.

In several forums I have seen miscommunication happen.
In normal human communication one also looks at facial expression, when one speaks to one another, so words can never be misinterpreted or misunderstood.
I guess that's why they invented the emoticons . I tend to use them a lot just to make sure that if people somehow misunderstood me because of my language barrier, they wouldn't get angry at me

James, the forum wouldn't be the same without your voice. When you where sun dancing this summer.....there was a big emptiness on the forum.
Maybe sometimes our ego's find it difficult to hear certain things being said. We are all learning on this forum and in a way growing up to become real adults
I have learned a lot the last 6 months or so that I have been a member, and the flute has become a bigger part of my life again.
This because of you and all the others in this ever growing flute circle family.
Thanks for sending your voice. Hoye wa yelo
Toksa ake

Hans

Without the exchange of thought... there is little growth. At times there is nothing better than a good healthy argument!!!

Oddly, after having a lousy morning... this thread kind of picked me up... weird....


Jeff

Communication--it's strange and wonderful. As living beings we need it like water.

It's impossible without some difference between the two communicators, otherwise what they would be exactly the same. . . .

It's also impossible without some basic, often unspoken agreement about what's important, otherwise no discussion at all. . . .

It's a form of gentle war, a substitute for head-bashing. "Peaceful Warrior" kind of thing.

I can understand your point completely. I relate because as you know I am being beaten up a bit on that particular thread you mentioned, and it is because I have both a different opinion, as well as a different approach to how I choose to discuss things, it can feel very frustrating to be ignored, and or misunderstood.

Personally, I believe it is the differences between us on this forum that gives me the greatest joy, as well as offering me the greatest opportunity to think about how I perceive the world. James, as I've said before, you are one of my favorite people on this portal for you actually speak your mind...

Thank you James for what you have brought into my life, and what a boring forum this would be without your views, Tooties humor, The Jim's and their music, Rick's researched and educated opinion on flutes, Robert's wit and kindness....and of course, our beloved Moderators who watch over their kids with such love and care.....

The guy with the dunce cap in the corner, Tenzin

words.. being what they are... means that the more you talk about something, the more you talk around it. the best you can do is to corral it into some meaning of concensus

the only true communication takes place without words.

James, I firmly believe that you may have misread some words, meanings, and intentions in a few posts, but alas . . . none of us are perfect . . . and alas . . . we can all be very thankful that our glorious Singing Sticks have brought us all together in this wonderful flute community.

Yeah Boy Howdy James, . . . IMHO . . . you certainly arrived here on the Portal with a strong message that was not exactly harmonius, but . . . I feel that the music within you has softened significantly and the overall flavor of your communications is considerably more palatable.

We cannot walk in each others shoes, but we can listen, learn, and try to communicate to the best of our abilities.

Some toes will inevitably be stepped on via the written word since each of our interpretations can be vasty different. However, if we put on a pair of soft and cozy Flute Portal Fellowship slippers and leave the heavy combat boots in the closet . . . . . . . .

With every wonderful and peaceful feeling that has touched us via the flute, . . . so be it with our of our flute brothers and sisters.

I arrived cause I was being talked about here. My strong message aint changed, and my music is the same, Been playing the same way consistently.

I am not asking anyone to change, matter of fact, I only bring things up now cause it is past the point of change. We just will agree to disagree, brothers, or not, sisters or not, brothers and sisters...or not, we still occupy the same place at the same time, and it is the way it is, that's all.

I don't have slippers, nor combat boots, but can usually be seen wearing a pair of yellow, fully beaded moccasins.

I don't think we all need to be friends, that isn't the way things go, I just wanted to fully finish sending my Voice about this stuff. I have spoken to some in private, including Geoffrey, and I do see it is quite a bit simply to do with cross-cultural mis-communication.

James, personally I am happy that you weathered the initial storm that brought you to this forum.

I enjoy your perspective, believe that you speak from your heart and am thankful for your contributions to our discussions.

Best,
Ed

You know Ed, initially, there were a handful of us who did not see eye to eye, you and I being 2. Now, I can say, I have found great teachings and friendship from many. As I have said before, I would rather be understood than liked. Like is fickle, like is transient, like is full of bias, but understanding creates empathy, and empathy stands even when like is nowhere to be seen. I can truly say I now empathize with more kinds of People because of this forum, and the sometimes painful dialogue here within.
Thanks.
Wanbli WiWohpe

Uncle Aaron was just talking about a young Leader here on the rez, how he hasn't yet found the ability to speak without speaking, and how that is the most important thing.

They are only after you cause you are evil, Tenzin.

James, I was really arrogant when I first joined... thought I was God's gift to fluting... You just have a strong opinion, I was way worse...but as long as we respect each others opinions we're all brothers (and sisters) in the end...

That is an example of the cross-cultural mis-communication. For example, when in the general population, it is usually thought a firm handshake and a look-em-in-the-eye is in order, but to us, that is the opposite of what is expected. We have a no-grip handshake and often look down. Just like the pat on the back thing many non-Native Guys I have been around do, to us, you just counted coup on me if you slap me on the back, or even hug me without an invitation. Same with claiming close familial relationships. Brother and sister are very close to us, and when we use the term fully, such as "Brother", it is akin to Kola, which means "I will die for you". That is heavy. We are all related, it is true, but, anyway, I hope you see what I mean. Seems like often when I come to this juncture, it goes from antagonism straight to close-family-kinship, and that seems disingenuous. Simple respect is enough. Shotgun weddings ain't necessary.
Toksa Jim, I appreciate your words.

James,
As I recall your introdution here was what I refer to as the 'manifesto',written here and in other forums and not really a document that endeared you to many or made you a comfortable part of this family.

I don't see your views changing much since then but more tempered. You are consistent

Maybe you've noticed, maybe not, but this forum has opened you up and I think you are a very good and important member of the family here.

My initial take, my negative on you, was not so much the attitude about non Natives but how little you seem to be doing to bring the flute to the folks up there on the Rez. and how little you seem to be involved in the art and ways of the flute of your People. In this matter I've noticed a lot of change. You had the option to complain about what the non Native folks were doing to take the flute away from ya'll or do something to help bring it back and you seem to be finding a way to do both.

So here's what you've done to,for me. My eyes have gone from seeing you as the rdical Indian to a man who can become very important in the battle of keeping the Ways of the Lakota flute, Soyatanka.
Kuz

James, perhaps that was yet another misread word interpretation. I was not speaking literally about your flute playing, but rather a more peaceful inner music within your heart that I felt was truly changing . . . for the better . . . for flute fellowship . . . for planting healthy seeds of enlightenment.

If you will read again what I wrote, you may actually grasp that my statement was to be taken as a compliment.

Otherwise, . . . you are indeed quite consistent!

Hau Tenzin,
I was just thinking about my flippant attempt at playfulness in my initial response to your post. You are not evil, you are a Wise and Intuitive Being with an ability to find humor in about any situation, I am sure. I value your friendship, insight and resilience. As I said, I would love to have you among us.

I think what bothered you, me and maybe other(s) about that etiquette thing, may be that it seems so defacto "official" that we(at least I) resent it being "our" official "collaboration". Is it the "official" "fluteportal etiquette guide?" hmmm. Why not a choice of sets of rules? Why the sudden need to codify? I understand (I think) yours and others reluctance to follow along. I also think there may have been a heavy handedness in so many "officials" culling the input, especially yours, but that is how it goes at times. (This is all my opinion, I don't even believe it is fact myself, just my opinion, not fact)

I do not like being spoken for. I think if it was a true group effort, yours mine and Ed's minds may well have changed prose to poetry... so it goes. The offer of including "our" input into the document SEEMS to have hinged upon it meeting the approval of "the officials". Funny how that thread attracted a resistance in at least a few.


Anyway, that's my take on it, I think it is an illustration of Iktomi wisdom, a web which serves only to exhaust its weaver(s).

Our Pipe Filling Song goes something like: "Friend, This Is How You Do This", that is pretty cool. I quickly realized, we learn, share, teach by living examples. We Learn By Doing.

I would suggest just leaving that thread where it is, but I think we shared some wisdom there anyway.

I hope you are Well, my Friend.
In Solidarity,
I Am,
Wanbli WiWohpe

What does this question mean? I'm not sure how the Flute Portal became the "official" anything in relation to the thread about flute circle etiquette.

Maybe its the way I read the document. It seems to refer to the flute portal. My mistake. By the way, the document has almost the word count of the Declaration Of Independence.

If it is simply Harter's document, and not a sanctioned "group effort", I have absolutely no place to criticize it at all. Maybe it is just me, Geoffrey, it was just the "official-ness" that got me.
Hope You Are Well.
Wanbli WiWohpe.

Thanks Man, Likewise.

James, I knew you were not being serious. Sadly, some of the comments on that thread towards me were serious....

What bothered me about that list was that particular style of wording was not helpful, it was comdemning. It read like a list of "do nots", guilty until proven innocent....much too harsh full of silly stuff (although some of them made me laugh)....and entirely too long!!!

I would have to think that since the list is being discussed, finalized and most likely made available on this forum then it should come with some seal of approval (official) of the flute portal....

The thread started and some people who's dominant belief is that human's are horrible jumped on the wagon with their own particular "let me tell you what happened to me stories" and I saw the list only getting longer and more negative in it's wording, more possible infractions, I tried to use humor but it only aggravated those who wanted more bulletins (I was just waiting for the no farting bulletin ). I just wanted the direction of the thread to shift, and hopefully it will move towards something more positive....

You can trust me when I tell you that I have permanently retired from that thread, especially after that last personal attack.....

I remember hearing a story of someone who asked Mother Teresa why she never attended any "anti-war" movements, she answered that she would come if people would just choose to hold a "pro-peace rally" instead...

Wisdom lies in being able to help people and we do not always see far enough down the path to know if we are actually helping. I think everybody on that thread wanted to help, but sadly the gap between left and right was too wide....and yes, communication was an issue, I know I was guilty...

Your friend, Tenzin

Hey, I plumb forgot about that. I think I know which one you mean, I went and made a special page just for it on my website, and even named it "Native Flute Manifesto".

"I would have to think that since the list is being discussed, finalized and most likely made available on this forum then it should come with some seal of approval (official) of the flute portal.... "

Following that logic, does an official Flute Portal "seal of approval" get affixed to every song that is posted in hopes of member feedback? Every story that is shared where members respond? Every review that is posted?

"You can trust me when I tell you that I have permanently retired from that post, especially after that last ugly personal attack..... "

Tenzin, I read over that thread again and again and I can't find any personal attacks anywhere. I saw some people disagree with each other and challenge one another. None of these disagreements or challenges were couched in language that could be described as rude, hurtful or harassing in any way. Some of the members might have been a trifle blunt in their delivery, but that is a far cry from being an "ugly personal attack". I gather that the thing that made you feel attacked was Rick questioning your specific flute circle related experience? That may annoy you, but casting it as a personal attack seems to verge a bit on the dramatic and representing it that way might lead some readers to believe that truly aggressive behavior is somehow tolerated on this forum, which it most emphatically is not. I've never known Rick to be deliberately rude to anyone on this forum, even when he is disagreeing with them, and neither his post or any of the others struck me as being in any way personal. To me, a personal attack is when someone is derisive, ridiculing or deliberately unkind. If someone tells me that I might not be the best judge of guitar playing technique because I don't have a lot of experience, that is not an attack (from my perspective) but just their opinion.

I tried to stay out of that thread after saying my piece, because further comment on my part would only be redundant. But there seems to be this lingering after taste on the pallets of several participants in that thread--comments being made about "official" this or that, as if those members who didn't like the list-of-rules-concept were somehow having their input "officially" squashed or something like that. Because we are in the Agree to Disagree forum, I'll share a bit of my impressions of that thread.

Harold pitched the concept of a list of rules for etiquette at flute circles. Initially, there was some good feedback, and he even welcomed the input of those who didn't like the concept at all or who were turned off by it. Everyone had their say and were respectfully listened to. All good, clean fun.

It became clear that Harold and quite a few other members were interested in continuing to develop and refine the concept (i.e. they still wanted to develop a list of rules beyond the simple concept that "everyone just behave themselves and be nice"). Tenzin, you seemed very uncomfortable with the whole notion, and I was surprised that you continued to oppose it philosophically after making your initial point. There was a fair bit of "chit chat" based around some of the philosophy, and it seemed to have achieved all it could usefully achieve. Mind you, this is just my impression--not as the Admin, but just as a visitor to the thread.

For the record, I don't like rules either (despite the fact that I had to create some basic ones for this site) and I don't actually attend flute circles, though I have been invited. In many ways, I totally get where you are coming from and feel the same way! But clearly there are people out there who have had experiences in groups that make them want or need some structure of this kind and I totally respect and support that.

But as the thread continued to divide itself into the two branches that Hawk described (those who were plugging away at the list and those that were discussing the philosophy around the concept of rules), Harold tried to refocus on actually developing the list. Obviously, those members who were more philosophically opposed to the "official" nature of such a list had already contributed in a constructive way to the process. However, Harold felt that enough was enough--he "got it" and didn't need (for the purpose of his project) to keep hearing it over and over, along with related digressions. Clearly this statement from him was the catalyst for some dissatisfaction and further discussion along those lines.

The Flute Portal has no official position on any of this. The Flute Portal is a web site, a forum and some assorted features. Within the forums is a community, and there are some guidelines and rules about content and behavior (all pretty much the Golden Rule for the most part). If I, or any of the moderators, chime in on a thread and try to support what we perceive the intention of the thread to be, or urge folks to respect one another, it does not suddenly become an official position. I spoke up from what I believe to be a place of detachment (I have no strong feelings on the subject of lists, per se, since I'm nowhere near a flute circle) because I could see what Harolds intention was in starting the list and why he tried to direct its focus at the point that he did. That is why both Hawk and myself tried to draw attention to that aspect of it. Not because anyone was in the wrong, but because sometimes peoples feelings and opinions obscure their vision a bit.

I read all of the exchanges you were engaged in Tenzin, and I kept getting the sense that you were feeling hurt from exchanges where no hurt was intended. I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings, but rather to draw attention to the fact that no one was doing it intentionally. Which brings me around to your statement that moved me to respond: that you had experienced an "ugly personal attack". I just don't see it. I know that you must feel it, but I encourage you to look back over those exchanges and try to hear them differently.

Geoffrey, please do not ask me that.... I had actually deleted the word "ugly" soon after posting it (I'm good at hindsight), but you being the ever vigilant moderator caught it before I had time to correct myself.

I'd prefer this to go away personally, that is why I apologised frequently in my last few posts and offered my support to Harold and ended the last letter by saying I had not communicated well....as far as Rick's statement I truly forgive him, he's one of our better soldiers on this forum and his words carry wisdom and a point of view that helps me see where I can grow as a person.

I would prefer to let the list precede in may matter that it needs for those involved and as James said, maybe some of what I said contained a little wisdom...

Your everyday pagan, anarchist, unconstructive, inexperienced forum member.... Tenzin

Next thread please....

Geoffrey, I would like to respond to this so you do not have any misunderstanding...

"Following that logic, does an official Flute Portal "seal of approval" get affixed to every song that is posted in hopes of member feedback? Every story that is shared where members respond? Every review that is posted?"

Yes, if someone were to post a pronographic video, or say something racial, then you would remove it, having the ultimate veto power. You've edited me on another thread!

So, anything posted on this forum must have some level of approval by the Administrator....

...that was my intent and words are only 7% of communication, so in saying that, I think we get on very well on this forum.

It's just one big group hug as far as I can tell....

Can I get back on the Christmas list now, Tenzin

Communication is a difficult thing. Especially on a forum like this. I have some experience in international and intercultural settings, and misunderstandings come easily. Because of differences in how we express, both between individuals and more so between cultures. I had some problems initially in Sweden, being non-Swedeish and meeting both Swedes and Saami. I also learned a lot from meetings with many other peoples.

Then it is said that communication is only a small percentage words and much more body language. Here we lose that aspect as well as intonation in words. We have only the written words. Besides, in a language that is not native to all of us. So miscommunication will continue to take place and misunderstandings will continue to happen. We must live with that. But as long as we are open to discussing that, and as long as we are open to both ask for and give clarfication, and open to not always agree, this forum will continue to be a valuable community to us.

James, thank you for opening up this conversation. Your input as well as many others input is highly valued.

Gerard

Gerard, I agree, I truly appreciate James input in this forum. I think with any group discussion it is relatively easy to communicate when the discussee's (is that a word?) are talking about something that they relatively agree about in general to start with...but when the gap between the views widens it requires each party to start to emphasize the listening aspect of discussion, and listening with an open mind can be hard for some.....

James presence on this forum and his efforts are not typical, and for that I am extremely grateful, he has opened my eyes in many wonderful ways. He has been a good teacher for me, for I have listened.

How boring would it be if we all played the same songs in life. I love it when someone sings a life song I have never heard, that is how I learn.....

A friend, Tenzin

I think I understand what you are trying to convey here, but I would respectfully disagree with the analogy. Suggesting that something has the "seal of approval" because it does not violate the forum rules and is allowed to remain on the site is not entirely accurate. To my thinking, if the Flute Portal has a "seal of approval" that can be applied to something, I would take that to mean that I am actively endorsing or promoting something.

There have been many statements made on this site that I do not personally approve of and would never endorse in any way. However, because I believe that free speech (that is not in violation of the basic courtesy rules that guide this forum) should be allowed, I do not interfere. So just because something is tolerated it does not follow that it is approved of. Any edits that I do to members posts are only because they have violated one (or more) of the sites basic guidelines (such as when I have edited members posts for political content).

And just for the record, you've never been removed from the Christmas list

Christmas list??? What have I missed?

Thanks Gerard. It is only recently that I have been exposed to other cultures, really. Even Americans. I just haven't been around them a whole bunch. I grew up among a bunch of Lakota Guys, most dead now. We stuck together throughout our Youth, and were together in adulthood too. We operated pretty efficiently. Even in prison, or maybe, of course in prison, the Lakota Males pretty much had our own world. In 1994, I was released to begin 11 years of parole. A tour of bad, low paying jobs ensued, and a crash course in vulgarity amongst my "co-workers". I finally found a job I liked, in 1995, making computer disc drive suspensions. Suddenly I was affluent! I went out to eat, bought colognes and clothes, 60 dollar silk ties, and suits tailored to me like I saw in movies and the like. I even bought books to read during the lunch hour and break times. I bought Russell Means' autobiography, and I became embarrassed for what I was becoming. I quit my job, or got myself fired anyway, vowed to stop cutting my hair, and began coming back "home".

Then began a period of being an "artist", but the false smiles and the pseudo-status of being an "artist" nagged at me until I quit.

Then came Flutes, and this all has been a whole new thing for me. I have never been talked to like I have been talked to in the "fluteworld". Even the only festival I attended, I thought I was going to get into a fight with the organizer. He began cussing at me, and yelling, Dennis Sizemore was there, he kind of got the thing going, lol. It was right in my booth, back in I think 2004?, and I have never had an argument where we didn't finish the barking (we call it "selling wolf tickets" in prison) by getting into some real biting. I actually was sleeping in my van in the parking lot, and got little sleep, as I was awaiting my enemy and his vengeance. I really thought "they were gonna get me" during the night(s). My problem is I was taught to never run, never lose; it is better to die fighting than to lose.

So ended my desire to "follow the flute path".

When I was among my Bros, we had rules. They went without saying. They were innate. We were not domesticated to the point of forgetting our "original instructions", and I still think of each of my fallen comrades daily. I miss them. They were brilliant, and I am only the runt of the bunch.

I owe anything that I am to them.
Toksa Ake Wanciyakinktelo
Wanbli WiWohpe

Yes, listening, and hearing, and letting what you heard find the place it needs to go within yourself, that is the only way of learning. Rote, memorization, etc. are cheap imitations of wisdom. Simple. If I am not typical, I believe anything I am was once typical, and the norm, it is just that the world has been turned upside down. What I carry is not mine, it is all the People's whom I was lucky enough to learn from, who I was able to listen to. It is unfortunate that the "norm" and the "mean" (mean as in median, or mediocrity) have become one and the same. I believe there were once days when "exceptional" or "extra-ordinary" was "the norm".
Thanks,
Wanbli WiWohpe

I think another aspect of communication (and etiquette) is to pay attention to the context/place/culture the communication and actions are taking place. We are fortunate to live in a diverse world with diverse people. And as long as we do, there will be practices and behaviors with very different meanings/intent depending on who does them and where they are done. In many cases we will continue to have conflicting standards of appropriate behavior based on our upbringing and the cultures we were raised in.

In many, many, situations its not a matter of right/wrong its a matter of the context in which things are taking place.

For example, I was raised such that if I saw someone unintentionally drop something that it would be polite to pick it up to protect what they dropped, get their attention, and hand it back to them. From what I understand from reading multiple powwow guidelines, doing this behavior to a person who had dropped something from their regalia would be very inappropriate. And yet if nobody had shared local etiquette, that's exactly what I would have done at a powwow thinking that I was being polite, respectful, and helpful. Its about context, and our behaviors and interpretation of other's behaviors can't be constant but have to pay attention also to whether we are in our place, in someone elses place, or on common ground as well as to whether the other person is "not from around here".

When I'm on common ground, I shake hands with a firm handshake (norm for my tradition) but know enough of other traditions to not make any judgement/interpretation of how the other person's part of the handshake is performed. When I'm on tribal land in the southwest I alter my own handshake out of respect for the people and place I am in, and out of no disrespect for the culture I came from and no intent to be a wanabee by temporarily adopting a local norm of behavior. And I would hope people would give me the benefit of the doubt if I made a faux pas and there had been no attempt to give me advance guidance as to behavior in a place.

Our world has too many examples of misinterpreting communication because we aren't paying attention to context and intent, and as a result weird things happen like certain words or symbols being removed from accepted traditional usage when they are usurped or desecrated by one segment of society.

I'd argue that its a good thing that, for example, our world has so many differnent ways to point at something, or make an "ok" symbol, even though a given gesture is unintentionally offensive somewhere else. Should the United Nations come up with one accepted method of pointing that applies to the whole world? Hardly. What is important is everyone having awareness of context, intent, history of communication and when in doubt giving the benefit of the doubt.

One last example I'll show is the use of the "swastika" symbol, a symbol that has been around for 6000 years, with many positive meanings and uses, and which is now commonly out of public use in many areas due to its desecration by one group of very bad people over a brief window in time. A casual, uniformed, observer from my culture might easily mistake the meaning of the following "whirling log" symbols (my photos) which use had long predated the desecration of the symbol by one group of unrelated peoples elsewhere. Because we as societies, are often quick to take offense, and short on understanding intent and context, these symbols were pretty much removed from public use in the 1940's. That symbol means something very different painted on the cliff than painted on one of my neighbors garage doors. Context and intent... And without some explanation, someone from my culture might look at that cliff and say to themselves "I can't believe no one has removed that disrespectful vandalism" and go away with COMPLETELY the wrong impression of what they are looking at.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

I think too often communication breaks down when a person is walking along their own path with their own history, and then when meeting another person on a crossing path, fails to realize that the other person came from a different place with a different history. This is where sharing information and interest in each other's traditions (etiquette, if you will) can go a long way toward building understanding and peace.

Its also something of a challenge anytime we express an opinion as to whether we are speaking for ourselves, or our people. And if we are speaking for our people, do we have the right and do they agree? Am I speaking to someone as a person, as a member of a culture, to their ancestors, or all of them? If one person in a culture says something is ok or not ok, is that sufficient for me to act on or should I take it under advisement, but still feel my way along the path understanding that not all people in a culture share the same beliefs/tolerances?

I was once at a gathering where a native flute carver was expressing a strong opinion about how inappropriate and disrespectful flutes make out of plastic were. Was he speaking for himself or his people and if so did they give him the authority to be their spokesperson? If people believe he spoke for his people, a number would have likely throw some flutes away. Most interpreted his statement to reflect his own view, and would likely not play one in his presence out of respect, but would still keep and play them elsewhere. Point being that sometimes people don't react to our statements or views not because they disagree with them, but rather because it is unclear who we represent and if those people are of the same belief.

So to sum it all up, my two cents are: context, benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, and sharing etiquette practices in advance of anything we would find significantly offensive or disruptive in our place, and understanding that same words/practices can have very different meaning depending on where they are expressed and who is expressing them.

Here I go yet again, typing too much. Sigh. Such is the nature of being temporarily out of work.

In order for one group to become familiar with the customs of another, there must be an attempt on the part of the first group to actually share that with the second group. In all too many instances, that is not done. In the face of such lack of "educational effort", one should not be overly concerned with a cultural "misstep", that was unintentional.

Rick, I agree completely. How come you can express what takes me multiple paragraphs in two short, concise, sentences?

I'd also add that if an attempt to share information of customs for a group has been made available, there should be an attempt by the second group to read and thoughtfully consider those customs.

Chalk that up to lots of practice at boiling things down to the bottom line.

Yes I will agree to the addendum, also.

One of the things that has had an adverse affect on the Native community as a whole, has been an unwillingness to share the culture, with others. I see that as unfortunate. Understanding and commonality, come from cultural sharing and understanding.

It is comparable to "protectionism" in most things. It doesn't really work, and it simply creates friction. Some people will not see it that way, of course. (One of the most predictable human traits, is disagreement.)

Yet I understand it too. A lot of cultures in the US, Canada, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, and elsewhere have had first hand experience with others not only taking things away from them but also of having others banning their practices, language, culture, and subjecting persons practicing their traditions to redicule, disrespect, and punishment.

So I think some of this will be slow in coming back, with reason. A person or culture that has been whipped for playing a flute, beating a drum, or speaking a language will naturally develop some resistence to sharing their practices.

But I agree that it also has an adverse affect (has perceived by me, an outsider). I see some cultures, some of which have been repressed, really showcasing their beliefs and traditions to others and taking great pride in doing so, and in the process having their children take pride in thier practices as something with great value to their own culture while seeing that others respect, appreciate, or even envy thier beliefs and practices.

A kind of weird analogy centers around nuclear power. The original nuclear power culture centered around military purposes and all those involved were by design very secretive because there were potentially severe consequences to sharing ANY information. Once civilian commerical nuclear power operations began, all the people involved came from the previous culture with its own set of secretive rules and applied them (sometimes unconsciously) to the current civilian world. As a result, they didn't share information when they should have either in promoting their cause or when dealing with problems that would arise, to the mutual detriment of all involved at times...

[This is not intended as a pro or anti nuclear power statement, just an observation of a related behavior.]

One of the problems that arise when sharing 'customs' is the perversions from folks that don't take the time to 'get it'.
The recent story about the "sweat lodge" that killed some and hurt many is a prime example.
Rick, there's a lot of this stuff going on out there, a lot of folks making money teaching half truths, made up stuff they attribute to some Native folks, self proclaimed 'Shamen' or Medicine
Men.
Because of this I don't think it's always a bad idea to keep some Ways closed to outsiders...
Kuz

Then again, those people might have lived, if they understood the limitations of what they were doing.

Rick, in my life I tend to attract people who work very hard towards agreement. I have been blessed in that regard. The circle I move in realizes that communication is the first step in understanding each others needs and it is those who choose to put there own needs first that are the ones always finding themselves in disagreement.

If a person predicts disagreement then that is what will manifest for that person in their life. My experience with the human populace is that the majority works hard towards agreements (governments not included).

Compromise, listen with your heart, offer kindness to others and a person will find that will be returned by those who at first might seem disagreeable, but in fact are just looking for the mindfulness (the opening) to be heard.

I'm convinced the basic natue of humans is to be kind and agreeable, some people have just locked this ability away.....it's there, it's just hidden behind years of unresolved hurt...

Humans are good, I like 'em, Tenzin

I would classify your experience as nice, but not necessarily usual. (Although fluties in general are pretty nice folks, and I have friends in many places these days, who are involved in flutes, there will always be a few, who don't quite measure up to nice.)

[...]
"One of the things that has had an adverse affect on the Native community as a whole, has been an unwillingness to share the culture, with others. I see that as unfortunate. Understanding and commonality, come from cultural sharing and understanding."

we do have to remember that in the beginning there was a lot of cultural sharing that actually allowed the "settlers" to survive in this land. we all know the story (or at least i hope we do) of how that sharing was repaid by unrelenting expansionism and ethnic cleansing. so i can understand why what was left of the Native culture was/is reluctantly shared if at all.


of all the land's in the America's that were colonized, this country is one of the few that stripped away the culture of the original peoples. even the slaves that were brought over were not permitted to keep their old ways. in contrast, the slaves and natives in south america were allowed to keep their traditions while being enslaved resulting in a more vibrant, homegrown way of life that is exemplified in thier music and other aspects.

it is what it is/was.... but it can't be ignored....

just throwing that perspective out to the wind....

Actually that is entirely common.

Take a look at China, Australia, New Zealand, India, Mexico, South America, Hawaii, and more. Indigenous peoples have not been treated that well, by colonizers, in much of any part of the globe, by any of the colonizers.

Not arguing your point, but rather stating that it has been the nature of colonizers to disenfranchise the indigenous peoples, in all parts of the globe.

It is up to us, today, however, to encourage the recognition and inclusion of those peoples, in all of modern society, in all parts of the globe. While we cannot undo what has been done, we can certainly participate in changing it.

I am just tacking this response on to the last post, in response to all the posts as I have read them since my last post:

Thanks for the thoughts to ponder as I go back to carving.


.

Can talk on this volumes but I think it wouldn't help much.
This Ceremony, sweat lodge (Inipi) is one that was shared, and is one that is abused. Can't blame those participating, they were ignorant even though this info has been shared.
Almost all Native ways come from a Spiritual place and this is not something a person can get to understand from reading a book or attending a workshop, but takes years of being on a path.
Why should a Native person want to share any knowledge like this to someone who has no desire of walking this path?
Kuz

Problem is, those people thought they were being guided on such a path. Yet, modern people know little of the dangers some of those paths can present. They do not recognize that such activities require people to be in good physical condition, among other things.

On the other hand, people often overdo Swedish sweat rooms, also. That should make people more aware.

My own sweat lodge story: I used to sweat with my Navajo friends and can attest to the power of the experience. We had one sweat that was led by a special very respected visitor from the Rez (I have forgotten his name) that almost killed me...

In the very first round this gentleman just kept adding the water to the point where I felt like my skin was boiling. I finally yelled "to my relatives" and bolted out the entrance, ashamed, saddened by the fact that I was unable to make it through the sweat...humbled by being the whimpy "white guy" who couldn't hang....

I walked around the corner of the building, to sit down, to hide, to cool off and let my shame subside. After about 10 minutes I walked back around the corner to where the lodge was and I saw 6 of my Native American friends all laying spread eagled in front of the lodge, flat on their back moaning, groaning and trying to cool off...

Man, that was hot, Tenzin

When you consider the relatively low level of temp/humidity that can cause heat exhaustion, not to mention heatstroke, I think I will leave the sweat lodge to others.

good points, Rick, you are indeed a wise "old hand" and more awake than most.