Hi Everybody:

Help me out please. If there are two flutes in G minor and one is concert tuned and the other one is not, how do they differ. And a technical question, how does the flute maker acheive a concert tuned flute?

Thanks
Carlos

If I understand it correctly, concert tuned means you can play it with other instruments because it has been tuned precisely with a tuner.

The other is in tune with itself so will sound fine but you wouldn't be able to play with other instruments and sound good.

As Carlos queried if both flutes tuned to G minor then theoretically both would work with other instruments??

If the "un-concert G minor was in tune with it self would it not be the same as the concert tuned G minor?
Is this really just a question of terms? How would one define: concert tuned, tuned and "grandfather tuned"if all are G minor??

Great question Carlos. I think it will stimulate nice discussion.

Concert tuned means that the tuning is precise to the key, and that all notes are tuned correctly within the scale that the flute plays. The concert tuned flute does not necessarily have "standard tuning", however. It can be "alternatively tuned". (That means different fingering.)

Now.....the nitty gritty is, that not all flutes, indeed not all concert tuned flutes, play the full scale of notes. Some makers do not attempt to get the highest note in the scale, especially in a standard tuned flute.

Different makers achieve concert tuning in different ways. Some do it with alternative tuning, while others do it with standard tuning. Almost all will use a chromatic tuner to refine each note to be exactly tuned.

Concert tuned flutes are supposed to be tuned to A440 pitch. That assures they will play acceptable with other instruments, or at least with "western" instruments, as opposed to Asian.

Some makers only make concert tuning, while others will make various grades of the instrument. Some make both alternative and standard tunings, but may only designate one tuning as "concert".

You will find the same sort of thing with other flute forms.....i.e. Japanese Shakuhachi will often be called "meditation" flutes, because they are not tuned to play with other instruments, but rather to be played as a solo instrument. Yet, there are Shakuhachi that are "modern, concert tuned", some with extra fingerholes for in-between notes.

So, the bottom line is.....concert tuning is desirable, but not all concert tuned flutes are created equal.

There really is no "standard" that I am aware of. What it means is up to the interpretation of the maker.
I use an electronic tuner to tune all of my flutes, tune them to a commonly accepted scale and method. Although I take great care in tuning I never refer to them as "concert tuned" mostly because I'm not sure what that really means .

From my understanding makers that offer both "Standard" and "Concert" tuning are refering to the degree of precision used in thier tuning process. The tolerance for concert tuning is tighter, and more time is spent tuning in the extended range, ect.................... Both flutes should be capable of playing the same basic tunes equally as well the difference becoming noticable when playing along with other modern instruments or more complex melodies.

At least that my interpretation . I'm Interested in what other think.

Interesting discussion. I have always respected Colyn Petersen's statement on his website that "At Woodland Voices we have only one level of quality, or in other words, we do not associate price tag with the amount of time spent voicing and tuning an instrument. The amount of care that is necessary is given to each and every flute so that it may play and sound as good as it can--without the hype."

This of course implies one of two things: 1) some makers intentionally make flutes of a lesser playing quality than others they make, or 2) the term "concert-tuned" is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

Here's my perhaps overly simplistic understanding:

Grandfather or "old-style" tuning - Not tuned to any particular key, the pitch is determined by the maker's own body measurements (or made to order to fit the player's body measurements). It will generally fall somewhere between G and F, depending on the size of a person's hands, and is said to be "tuned to itself"--in other words, it will sound great as a solo instrument for improvising music from the heart but terrible when played with other instruments or when trying to play western standards such as "Amazing Grace."

Standard tuning - Depending on how seriously you take Colyn's statement above, this could have two meanings. It could suggest that the tuning is less than optimal. In fact, Barry Higgins of White Crow Flutes uses this term to distinguish between what he calls "standard" and "optimized" tuning. Does this imply that standard tuning is less than optimal, and therefore less desirable? Probably not--at least not in the case of a reputable maker. From what I can gather, both flutes should play equally well and in tune at least within the octave.

Concert or optimized tuning - So what's the difference between standard and concert tuning? As far as I can tell, the phrase is a misnomer. It's not really about tuning at all (in tune as opposed to out of tune). It's about extended range and perhaps about tonality. Here's what Barry says on his website about his optimized flutes: "These designs are for the advanced musician that desires a highly engineered instrument with a very well tuned fully chromatic play well into the 2nd octave (generally 5th). These designs have a somewhat longer and narrower bore than most flutes on the market [providing] for better 2nd octave tuning and uniformity of tone across the full scale. These flutes tend to be cooler and brighter in the color of their tone." Still, one could interpret this to mean his standard tuning is not highly engineered or well tuned. I think, however, the emphasis is on the second octave range and the tone. A cooler, brighter tone sounds better through a microphone and amplifier.

As a testament to this last point, I can say that for solo meditation I much prefer my flutes from Geoffrey and Colyn--who make no distinctions between standard and concert tuning. For recording, however, my "concert-tuned" J.P. Gomez flutes sound better when played back. Granted, my recording equipment is primitive and I have no experience with J.P.'s Sedona Canyon series or courting flutes, which he does not advertise as concert-tuned, for a full comparison.

For me, generally speaking, it's less about tuning than tonality and function. For recording and performance cool and bright is probably the best way to go. For solo meditation, on the other hand, I like warm and mellow.

Those upper octave notes are what I really look for in an outstanding flute, and only 2 makers I know of, get that full scale, reliably, on standard tunings. Most makers do not get the high note, even many with excellent reputations, like Geoffrey and Colyn, and many do not get the second highest note reliably.

Without that high note, I don't consider a flute truly concert tuned, although there are at least 2 fingerings that may work on a standard tuned flute, and the main reason for alternative tunings, is to get that full scale, reliably.

I assume one is J.P. And the other is...? (You knew someone would ask!)

Gary Kuhl. You mighta lost track of that on another thread.

Actually, that's what I thought...just wasn't sure.

Thanks everybody. Does anybody know what website has a chart that indicates what each note on a six-hole Native American flute should be according to Contemporary N.A. tuning (black keys on a piano)? So for example if a flute in G has all its holes closed, it plays the note of G. Right? Then what are the other 5 notes and two octaves going up the scale?

I was looking at a few flute makers on the web from whom I wanted to buy. Ken Light, Russ Venable, JP Gomez, and High Spirit Flutes. So from what I heard on this thread is that JP Gomez´s concert flute acheive two octaves. And I saw somewhere on another thread a reference to High Spirit Flutes being made fun of. Why? Is it the tuning? I guess I would have to try it myself, but....does anybody think that a flute tuned, let´s say, to G by each of those maker will play the same notes. Is that possible? Or maybe for a combination of other flutes from other makers....

Thanks Again,
Carlos

[quote name='Carlos' date='Jun 14 2008, 01:27 PM' post='4550']
Thanks everybody. Does anybody know what website has a chart that indicates what each note on a six-hole Native American flute should be according to Contemporary N.A. tuning (black keys on a piano)? So for example if a flute in G has all its holes closed, it plays the note of G. Right? Then what are the other 5 notes and two octaves going up the scale?

I have a couple of charts that show what the notes are. I just need to locate the links and I'll get back to you.

does anybody think that a flute tuned, let´s say, to G by each of those maker will play the same notes. Is that possible?

Yes, they should play the same notes. The flutes might sound different because each one is unique, but they still should all play the same notes, though, in the key they were tuned in.

Carlos, You will find tuning information here:

http://www.flutekey.com/htm/keys.htm

Another informative site:

http://www.flutetree.com/


A couple things worth noting, some makers use "alternative" tuning. I believe Ken Light is one of them. As far as the High Spirits Flutes, they are well made, well tuned and a great flute for any beginner. I have a High Spirits Cedar A that I bought early on, it was very easy to play and gave me confidence to keep going with the NAF. What some people fault them for is the fact that they are machine made in batches instead of hand made individually. One High Spirits flute is much like the next in appearance and sound. That can be a positive or negative depending on your perspective.
Ed

Carlos, bear in mind that not all flutes will behave the same and require the same fingering, particularly for notes in the second octave. Most are the same for the first octave, but some experimentation might be required. This is one of the reasons that I recommend owning an electonic chromatic tuner: you can experiement with your flutes to find out the optimal fingering.

I think that it is a very rare thing that any maker creates a NAF that can play two octaves. I'm speaking of two full octaves, mind you. Most NAFs will play a few notes into the second octave, but a flute that is designed in such a way to allow it to play two full octaves (with anything near to accuracy) is going to be a very sensitive flute. You don't get extended second octave play without sacraficing something in the first octave. The farther a flute plays (accurately) into the second octave, the more sensitive it becomes on the fundamental note (the lowest note--all holes closed) and the "thinner" sounding it will be throughout the first octave.

I don't know who makes fun of High Spirits flutes, but I have nothing but respect for Odell Borg (the maker of High Spirits). They may often be considered a "starter flute", but they are nice, functional instruments that are really affordable. My first flute was a High Spirits flute, and it introduced me to the world of the NAF. Odell has made it his mission to provide affordable, decent quality instruments to people, and he does it well.

Just out of curiosity, which note is the high note on the ideal, concert tuned flute?

Rick, are you saying that those 2 makers get a full second octave? None of the flutes I have goes more than a third into the second octave. In my limited experience, only some diatonic instruments (which seem to have a recorder-like bore) have a real second octave.

Victor.

I think that Rick is referring to makers who get that extra note out of the second octave, not that they play two full octaves--at least I think I'm correct with this assumption. I've never personally seen or heard a full two octave NAF. I know someone who played one once, and they commented that it sounded pretty poor, though it played all the notes.

Hi Geoffrey,

When you are refering to a full two octave NAF do you mean those with the standard tuning? Do some of the other tunings ie Celtic, Middle Eastern, Do-Re-Mi (do not know what to call this) get two full octaves?
If the bore were conical how would it effect the flute's abilty to get the second full octave?

I'm sure Rick will come along soon and speak for himself, but from my own experience on both my JP Gomez flutes I can get three clear notes in tune above the octave without half-holing: 00XX0X, 00XXX0, and 00XX00.

Having said that, I can get the same three notes on Geoffrey's and Colyn's flutes by half-holing: 00XX-0 (- indicates the half hole).

Nobody gets 2 full octaves on a block design flute. The upper octave can, however, get 3 notes above the octave for the full NAF scale (for block style flutes), although most makers only get 2 or 1, above the octave shift. (I would not buy one that only gets 1 note above the octave.)

I also neglected to mention that many High Spirits flutes (but not all), do also play 3 full notes above the octave. (Anyone who makes fun of High Spirits flutes, is foolish.) With most other makers who occasionally get the 3 notes above the octave, it is just on occasion, except for the alternative tuning makers, like Ken Light and Butch Hall. Now and again, I will find a flute among a maker's display, that will play the 3 notes above the octave, but most of their flutes will not. That's what I call more a lucky circumstance, rather than by design.

I will try that fingering, Paul, on my Geoffrey and Colyn flutes, and see if I can get the note that way. I had not found an alternative fingering that worked, nor has my teacher.

Yes, the 3 notes above the octave I look for, are:

ooxxx
ooxxo
ooxoo or oxxoo (an alternative fingering that works with some flutes / makers, including some J.P.Gomez, although he makes flutes with one or the other of those fingerings, and on his, but not all makers, you can use oxx---as the fingering for all 3 notes, if the alternative fingering is needed for the high note. (That's the highest note I look for.....with the first fingering being most ideal to play, although the alternative fingering is more intuitive and easier to play than the full alternative fingering of Ken Light or Butch Hall concert tunings.)

Any other fingering that works, is simply one I have not found. (Their existence is entirely feasible.)

While some flutes get that 3rd note above the octave well in tune, some others will play it, but it will not be well in tune. Others won't play it at all.....they won't hold the octave shift.

On the other hand, an Anasazi or Hopi flute, like most embouchure flutes, can usually play 2 full octaves, and into the third octave, for an accomplished player. (I can sometimes play into the third octave.)

I am learning block style diatonic at the moment, but I am not sure yet whether it will actually play 2 full octaves, either, in a block style flute. I have my doubts, although it will certainly play more notes than a pentatonic tuning.

Of course, much of this "how many notes" discussion, is entirely dependent on the skill of the player, especially in embouchure flutes, which I lay no claim to at all. (No Peter Phippen, here.)

I can get the same three note's Paul is talking about on my Spirit of the wood's flutes.A F# and a G.I tried it on my flute from Geoffery,but it wouldn't do it.Oh well Geoffery still makes some fantastic flutes.

Now that's just weird, because I can't get those notes on my SOTW flutes, a B and a G. It's the only thing that keeps Ed's flutes from being darn near perfect for me.

This thread made me sort of curious about my own flutes, so I went to my shop and started playing some that were laying around. I tried a variety of keys from mid-range down and I was able to get three notes into the second octave on all of them except the ultra-low E. However, the fingering I was using does not resemble any of those demonstrated in this thread, so that may be the problem.

This actually points up the need for people to experiment with their individual flutes and not use the same "template" of fingering each time they pick up a new flute. If you always try to acheive a certain result by using only a couple of fingering options, you might never try the combo that creates the result you want.

I suspect there may be a couple of keys that I make where it is tricky to get that third octave note, but based on my sampling most of them do it.

ok that begs the question of what different fingerings were you able to achieve the higher notes??

Awe! But Paul, now you know that you can play those notes on both of those flutes when fingered correctly. Almost all Spirit of the Woods Flutes play 15 notes. Some of the very Large Bass Flutes will not. One thing people need to remember is that fingerings can be different from maker to maker and even from flute to flute from the same maker. One needs to refer to the finger chart provided by the maker. To get the the heart of the original post though, It is my belief that a concert tuned flute is a flute that has been made by a maker that took the time to insure that each note in the BASIC SCALE is perfectly in tune in 72 degrees fara. It is up to the player from here to learn how to play the notes in the extended scale perfectly in tune, because fingering these notes can vary from flute to flute.

Ed
Spirit of the Woods Flutes

Thanks Ed.......you have pointed out something about flute makers that is very inconsistent.......namely that only certain makers consistently provide fingering charts for their flutes, while others never do, and others only will if specifically asked to do so.

Even then, of course, the chart is more of a departure point, than a true guide, as I have makers that alter the chart to fit a specific flute!

The deal there, of course, is that the main benefit of Nakai Tab is circumvented, in that even flutes from the same maker, will not necessarily finger notes the same way, all the time. (Therein lies the complexity.)

The upshot of this discussion, in my view, is that until you reach a certain level of playing skill, you will not be able to discern readily, how a flute actually plays, and so.....you will probably play a number of flutes incorrectly, for a long time, until you "discover" the variables that you simply played over, incorrectly, from your lack of understanding. Such was the case with a flute I had from Colyn.....I played it fine in the lower octave, but when I progressed to the point of going into the upper octave (and that is really where many differences exist), then I discovered a normal fingering did not work at all. Douglas Blue Feather pointed out there was a fingering variance in High Spirits flutes, from "standard".....again in the upper octave. Of course, in the meantime, you acclimate your ear....to the wrong notes!

These flutes are very individual.....from flute to flute, and maker to maker, and all those differences make playing, a constant challenge for the player, and it is great to share all this, so that players become more aware of the complexities of the instrument.

As my mentor said, when I began to play, "it is a simple instrument......that can be made very complex", and that is perhaps the truest statement I have ever heard about the NAF!

Now you can see why I have become personally, more particular about how a flute is tuned, as I really like to have as much consistency in the fingering as possible, to enable my musically challenged ear, to learn to play better, without so many variables being involved.

I really don't like having to sit down and create a different fingering chart for each and every instrument......which is really the state of things, as I find them. For me, who has enugh trouble finding time to just practice.......I would like some consistency in my flute playing, so I am not forced to spend a lot of time, being technical. Technical should be for the makers......I just want to play!

Well said, Ed--this sums up my own perspective.

HUH?!

Could you speak English here for us newbies?

How are we playing wrong if we are playing the right notes?

I totally don't understand ....

Simply put.......the notes are not necessarily where they are supposed to be. They may actually be somewhere you don't expect them to be, if they are there at all.

Thus, the tuner (you really should have a chromatic tuner) gets used to check not only flute key.....but the actual tuning and of course, the fingering, to play the scale on that particular flute, which entails all possible fingering combinations, including some half holes, to find the scale fingerings.

You can, actually make your own fingering chart, by simply recording the possible fingerings, and the notes produced that way. Then you simply transpose to a chart, in the proper scale order, of low to high.

If you actually do that for all of your flutes, you are likely to find any number of "variances", from one flute to another, especially in the notes of the upper octave.

Is that better?

Some of that is on FluteTree.com, in the fingering charts section, but in discussions with Robert Gatliff, who owns the site, I think there is some assumption that all makers make all flutes the same way, which I have found not to be true. So, I consider the charts there, more of a departure point, rather than set in stone.

Much! Thanks!

How do you count that? One chromatic octave, plus 3 more chromatic tones? So if you have a flute in A, the first twelve are A-G# and then you have an extra A-A#-B?

Victor.

Here's what Ed shows on his mid G chart: G, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, A, A#, and B

Okay...so fingering often changes from maker to maker and even flute to flute, there are some tuning inconsistencies, and we often "hear" the wrong scale and so learn it incorrectly. Great! Now I have to relearn everything I thought I knew. Seems as if I've been playing all my flutes as if they were more or less "Grandfather tuned"--which ain't bad, but it ain't right if I want to play with the New York philharmonic. Does that about sum it up?

So, Rick...the consistency you seek is primarily consistency of fingering? Then consistency of accurate notes in the scale is of secondary importance, since it seems you can't have it both ways?

Rick, did you try this fingering (00XX0X, 00XXX0, and 00XX/0)? Now I'm expecting you to tell me that while you can get notes with this fingering they are not the right notes to be in tune with the scale. Let me know.

Since I rarely play sheet music, or play with other musicians, I am not so concerned with the notes, as I am the fingering, so that I can make fewer mistakes in fingering.

I haven't tried it yet. I have been busy with a major landscaping project, since I couldn't go to Zion, and have not gotten Geoffrey's or Colyn's flutes out, to try them. I will get around to it, though.

The Mrs. goes back to work today. That will help.

I don't think the situation is too serious in terms of folks learning the "wrong" scale (whatever that means). Every pentatonic minor NAF that I've ever played (that was even remotely in tune according to a tuner) used the exact same fingering for the entire chromatic range of the first octave. The exception are the Lakota-style tuning used by makers like Ken Light, Butch Hall (some of the time) and ?? (I've heard of others--can't remember them right now). These flutes oblige you to get the octave note by doing this:

OXX000

Apart from that, we are really talking about the fingering of the second octave notes. Since most flutes only play two or three notes up there, narrowing the fingering combinations down is no big deal. There are only a few combinations that will produce the notes.

People have different philosophies around the NAF as we all know, and they have different needs. I've always liked my flutes to be tuned as accurately as possible, but I've never worried too much about how perfect and consistent the second octave is. I've found that if a flute is solidly in tune with the main notes of the first octave (the pentatonic scale), the cross-fingered notes end up being close enough in tune by default. Perhaps not perfect, but near enough to bend them into place with subtle application of breath pressure.

There was a time (maybe ten or eleven years ago when the NAF was in the first flush of its "renaissance") when people loved them as folk instruments and cherished their individuality. If someone got a flute, they got it because it had a voice that moved them and was beautiful to look at, or they connected with it in some personal way. I'm generalizing here, of course.

As a maker, I never heard any discussion of standardized fingering (for lack of a better term) or of people wanting all of the flutes in their collections to behave exactly the same. The fun was in the individuality of the flutes, in taking the time to get to know each one--it's strengths and weaknesses. This picture I'm painting is not of my own creation, this is actually something that I've distilled from many conversations with players and collectors over the years.

Most people who played the flute (that I knew) played solo---for themselves. These days there seems to be a growing population of folks who want to play written music (or tab) or play in ensemble situations. They are bringing the folk instrument into a more modern musical context and are expecting different things from it (which is ultimately a good thing, I believe--I'm actually one of these people). However, I think that there is a ceiling to what people can realistically expect from an instrument like this. A whistle, with a cylindrical bore, is going to have limitations (and inconsistencies) that are imposed by the design. Probably the only way the we are going to push the envelope in terms of what the NAF can do it to make "fusion flutes" and cross them with other woodwinds.

When I play the NAF or try to integrate it into my own music, I use it within its limits. It is primarily a single octave instrument. When I hear people play them in the second octave, I don't find it pleasant--it sounds shrill. An occasional foray into the second octave is plenty--a little goes a long way. When I want a flute that does more than this, I pick up a different kind of flute.

Ahhh...this is a revelation to me. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around this. What this means, then, is that sheet music with finger diagrams is only an approximation of a song. If I play "Amazing Grace," say, on six different flutes using the same diagrams my uneducated ear will "hear" the same song, but individual notes may in actuality be slightly off key--which is fine for solo performance but not for ensemble playing. Right?

Ideally, I would have to create a different finger diagram for each flute to be able to play "Amazing Grace" in tune every time. This might explain a comment I made in another post about how recording the same original composition in different keys gave varying acceptable or unacceptable results. Some keys sounded better than other keys--which may still be the case, but it might have been because some flutes were playing the song "out of tune" with the uniform fingering I was using.

I don't mind appearing foolish once in awhile, so long as I discover in the process why I am foolish.

I could probably be happy in a meditative spirit playing solo more or less in tune for the rest of my life, but I also know myself well enough to be sure that curiosity will get the better of me. A chromatic tuner will either lead to more foolishness on my part or deeper knowledge and eventually wisdom. Ignorance may be bliss, but once the door has been opened....And so I'm off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of Oz. Because, because, because, because...

Well Folks, Speaking for myself, I'm just a simple Ol' Dude who when I see a flute I like I try to play it the "Only" way I know How and if I like the Tone and I can play the songs I know how to play on it then I get it. If I can't play my songs on it, I don't get it! I don't "Want" to know fifteen different "Fingering Methods" on Fifiteen Different Flutes!!! I'm one of those play for myself kinda folks and every now and then if I run into someone with a flute I might try and do something together with them but that isn't often. Guess I'm from that Ol' "If it ain't Broke don't fix it School" I want it to be in tune whether its Concert or Grandfather Style, I've seen some so called "sticks with holes in them" that somebody called a flute, that wasn't even in tune with itself or anything else in the Universe! Besides I don't know that much about all the Finer Points of Music anyways to even start to get Technical about it! All I want to do is Play and Enjoy what I hear and how it makes me and others Feel when I do play. Many Blessings...Robert

Will revelations never cease? I suspect this is the wisdom I seek, but not having played long enough to really have a philosophy of flutes I simply assumed that all flutes behaved--or should behave--more or less the same--not necessarily because I wanted them to but because that's what perfection seems to demand.

Intellectually, I know that those who seek perfection are doomed to disappointment. Emotionally and spiritually, the idea of a note being "near enough to bend...into place with subtle application of breath pressure" is far more satisfying to me. Geoffrey, your admission that you don't worry too much about the perfection and consistency of the second octave is liberating--as is Rick's admission that he doesn't worry too much about the perfect accuracy of notes in his playing (and here I thought he was a perfectionist). Even so, one needs to see the wizard for himself to learn the true value of Kansas. I'll still get that chromatic tuner, and it will probably even piss me off when it shatters the illusion of perfection even as I expect it, but wisdom doesn't come cheap or quick or by reading the philosophy of others now, does it?

Robert, I hear you and am more than a bit envious of your temperament. My obsessive curiosity often gets me into trouble. I will say, though, that what really draws me to the flute is its ability to clear my mind of all the clutter--"monkey chatter," someone calls it. I only get into trouble when I stop playing (though my wife might sometimes get irritated if I play too much instead of doing chores around the house). Even she, though, recognizes that the flute has brought much peace to my life.

great post Geoffery! this is indeed a folk instrument, if one wanted a flute sound with a fuller range that is in tune up and down the octaves you'd pick up a classical silver flute (which is what the flute player in Brule uses). i personally usually stay away from the chromatic notes because of the inaccuracy of pulling them off and am more content to stay in the diatonic minor to bring out the melodies in the flute, enjoying the freedom of limitations. this is an evolution (or bastardization) of the original grandfather flutes of the NA.

[quote name='Geoffrey' date='Jun 16 2008, 11:01 AM' post='4599']

There was a time (maybe ten or eleven years ago) when the NAF in the first flush of its "renaissance" when people loved them as folk instruments and cherished their individuality. If someone got a flute, they got it because it had a voice that moved them and was beautiful to look at, or they connected with it in some personal way. I'm generalizing here, of course.

This is how it should be, in my opinion. And this is how I purchase flutes. There has to be meaning for me. I don't just want any old flute that will play whatever I want. I want an individual flute that has it's own uniqueness.

As a maker, I never heard any discussion of standardized fingering (for lack of a better term) or of people wanting all of the flutes in their collections to behave exactly the same. The fun was in the individuality of the flutes, in taking the time to get to know each one--it's strengths and weaknesses. This picture I'm painting is not of my own creation, this is actually something that I've distilled from many conversations with players and collectors over the years.

I am selling a flute I recently purchased - not because it isn't a good flute, but because it is too much like another flute I have - not only same key, but almost same sound, etc. I want my flutes to each have their own 'personality'. That way, they are each special - not one of many, but one of a kind.

Rick,

To be clear, I’d like to make sure I understand what you mean by what those three notes are. To be specific, I’ll describe the notes by their interval names referenced to the key, and I’ll use F# as an example for the key of the flute. In the first register, those notes would be

xxx xxx – the root, fundamental, or unison (F#)
xxx xxo – the minor third (A)
xxx xoo – the fourth (B)

and continuing up the scale of mode 1

xxx ooo – the fifth (C#)
xox ooo – the minor seventh (E)
oox ooo – the octave (F#)

Venturing into the second register, the “ideal” flute (in the mathematical sense – not necessarily “ideal” in the playability sense) would play

oox xxx – the octave (F#)
oox xxo – the minor third above the octave (A)
oox xoo – the fourth above the octave (B)

but due to the real-world acoustics the result is often something closer to the following:

oox xxx – the augmented octave, or minor second (G)
oox xxo – the second above the octave (G#)
oox xoo – the major third above the octave (A#)

These notes can be crafted so they are dead-on in-tune on a chromatic tuner, but exactly one semitone off from an octave above their first-register counterpart. This, of course, goes with the caveats that the notes can be tweaked back to the “ideal” with careful sound hole design and finger hole layout, bore perturbations, and the specific use of the top holes as register holes (i.e., oox---, oxx---, xox---, /xx---, etc…). In fact, that is what I strive for in my flutes, and I have dedicated a significant amount of effort to understand the acoustics of the flute in attaining that tuning. With more effort, I can squeeze out the minor third above the octave with (oxx ooo) but need to work out some more tweaks to get it better in tune.

So the point of all this is what is the highest note you look for in the (oox xoo) fingering? Is it the fourth, or the major third above the octave? Also, does the ability to get the fifth above the octave in tune make the flute more desirable?

At some point, the character of the NAF sound begins to change as the range is increased. A full two-octave block flute can be done, but as the range goes up it sounds more and more like an Irish whistle. When Lew Paxton-Price speaks about the NAF, he calls it a 1.4-octave instrument, that pretty much translates to reaching the fourth above the octave (for those who do not know of him, Lew laid the groundwork for the design tools used by many of the flute makers that came onto the scene early in the renaissance of the NAF).



Getting back to what “concert tuned” means, the loosest definition I’ve seen is that it will play the first octave, basic pentatonic scale in tune so that it can be played with other instruments. This could be extended to the cross-fingered notes to get the full chromatic scale (except the pesky major second that has to be half-holed…), and it could be extended to the notes in the second octave. But what is not necessarily stated is that the notes should be tuned to the equal-temperament intervals as opposed to one of several “just intonation” tunings. “Equal temperament” means, basically, that the semitones are all 100 cents apart on the chromatic tuner. A note that is “in tune” on the chromatic tuner is in-tune in the equal temperament tuning (unless the tuner is fancy and has other settings). “Just intonation” is based on the notes being simple ratios in frequency compared to the fundamental, and can be off by as much as 18 cents when compared to the ET note.

Mike

I'm with Robert on this.Just play the flute and injoy.Don't swet the small stuff.It will be ok Paul,I hope!

Paul, I think you will find that performers choose a specific flute for a specific song, because that is the only predictable way to play the song! Mary Youngblood goes so far as to put a sticky note on the flute as to the song it is supposed to play, to remind her.

The issues of how flutes play, whether by tuning or by specific peculiarities, dictates that kind of thing. In order to know predictably how the song will play, you have to play it on the flute you have worked it out on (usually). I have watched performers who have slipped up in that method, such as forgetting a flute needed for a song, and invariably they have a little "mess up" in the song somewhere, when they try to play it on a different flute.

Interesting to observe these things.

This has turned out to be a great discussion thread in my opinion. I have every intention of just playing the damn flute, but I also really appreciate Mike's technical knowledge and clear explanation--as well as Rick's reference to Mary's sticky notes. I'm of the school that believes we all start out in innocence, then spend half our lives learning to perfect our technical skills and the remainder of our lives "forgetting" those skills so that they become second nature. In other words, true intuition comes not from innocence but from informed experience and lots of practice. This latter stage of mastery is often mistaken for innocence by those who haven't yet achieved it. The stage of acquiring technical knowledge and skills often looks to the innocent like suffering rather than enjoyment, but I would argue that the joy of mastery far supercedes the joy of innocence and that a certain amount of suffering is necessary to achieve it. That's what my high-ranking karate friends tell me.

So play the damn thing, yes, but also seek to understand its complexities and deeper levels of meaning. Ultimately it will lead you back to Kansas, Dorothy, but my...how Kansas will have changed.

Philosophy lecture over.

Tootie...one could argue that cherishing individuality goes far beyond being moved emotionally or appreciating beauty, that it also extends to understanding the complexity of every detail, even the ones that might potentially irritate us. Nicole Kidman (or whoever, fill in the blank) moves me, and she's certainly beautiful by my standards, but I don't fool myself into believing I know her as an individual based on that alone.

As for the flute you're selling because it isn't "different" enough, I'm reminded of a story about the French writer Gustave Flaubert when he was starting out. Another writer, Guy de Maupassant, advised him to go to a train station in Paris and select one cab driver (horse and buggy) from a hundred others and describe him in such a way that anyone else could pick him out of the crowd. This is how a writer must work to create believable characters and to avoid stereotypes.

Truly cherishing individuality means carefully observing and recognizing the differences even when everything seems to be the same. I bet you could learn a lot by trying to discern the differences between your two "similar" flutes.

Ah Yes Paul, There is Truth in Your Words Brother but for Me I do not need to know all the Scientific Calculations or the Atmospheric Data to enjoy the Beauty of the Rainbow and so it is with the Flute for Me. I just Enjoy the Magic of this Beautiful Instrument Many Blessings...Robert

I'm sure I could. But, though it is a good flute, it isn't one that I will pick up and play like the others. It doesn't speak to me.

I hear you...one of the drawbacks of internet dating. You never quite know what you're going to get until you get it. Sure wish I could meet all my flutes in person at the various events before making a commitment.