Forum Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Ebay Flutes!
The Flute Portal Forums > Flute Portal Cafe (FPC): A gathering place for fun, philosophy and not-strictly-flute! > FPC: Agree To Disagree
Pages: 1, 2, 3
BirdSong
There was a question about a certain flute maker who sells on EBAY! Well, fellow fluters, that subject and perhaps some other "pertinent stuff" is covered in this post! smile.gif

There are quite a few highly skilled flute makers selling/auctioning their products on EBAY at an array of prices. Then, there are some flute makers who are cranking out some totally "So So" or ""Less So" inexpensive flutes on a routine basis that just may fit into the cheap toilet paper scenario of; " You got exactly what you paid for! " The whole notion of buying items at "auction prices" is a huge variable all in itself. Some of us have seen a few flute auctions that started out at $1.00 sell in the high hundreds and there have been some way low priced auctions that seemed like everyone else on the flute planet was asleep or out to lunch, and they missed out on the deal of a life time. smile.gif

Buying your flutes on EBAY could actually be compared to buying your shoes on EBAY. If you are very familiar with the product line, and the cost is what you personally determine as a "good price", then go for it, since getting a fair price on something that works for you or pleases you in whatever way, is usually why you are purchasing that product. Some of us may actually feel a tad bit guilty since we fully realize that the cobbler or flute maker invested a significant amount of money, time, thought, energy, and risks, on something that we got . . . for what seemed like a song! Some other "Gotta Have It" items can and do sell for what seems to be a rather high price to others. Take a closer look the next time you are at a flute festival and you will see that some of the silent auction ending prices for certain flutes are often a good example of what more of the flute makers should be getting for their "true musical works of art". Yes, that auction money goes to help support the festivals or perhaps some other particular good cause, but I have heard more than one flute maker say that he sure wished he could fetch a price like that more often on his flutes. smile.gif

Native American Flutes cannot be found at your local "FluteMart" or at "Flute-SAKS Avenue", but flute buyers still need to be savvy shoppers whether they are buying on EBAY or from certain flute maker's web sites. It is wise to ask around, and that is where some of the flute circle folks could probably assist new flute players in helping them to make better decisions with some of their purchases. Let's face it, there could indeed be a few flute makers out there with an agenda that does not necessarily involve what is best for the flute player, his needs, and his wallet! smile.gif Kudos to the flute makers who take the appropriate extra steps to make things right when there is a problem with a flute.

Yes, it seems to be true, that a certain flute maker is known to prey on the buyer's sympathy. The people who receive a much less than adequate flute often will not return their purchase simply because they believe that the maker is being honest about his "situation" and truly needs the funds to survive. There are other folks who do not wish to return flutes simply because they do not wish to hurt someone's feelings.
There are flute makers that readily state that their flutes are "Tuned To Itself" and the buyer is more than welcome to return the flute if they are not pleased. On the other end of the spectrum, there may be a very well known flute maker who may have had a bad tuning week in his workshop, "Sagittarius was misaligned with the moon" , or perhaps someone may be losing his flute making touch and has produced a flute or two that is simply not up to par. In that case, those mediocre flutes probably should be gifted to someone for their first flute instead of being sold as a "Concert Quality Flute". As with many other products that can be purchased on EBAY and over the Internet in general, it is extremely wise to make sure the seller, store, or business offers a full refund if you are not satisfied with your purchase.

Negative feedback on EBAY affects a sellers reputation and some people will simply NOT purchase a product from a buyer with a certain percentage of negative feedback, but there is always room for constructive criticism and honest remarks within positive feedback responses. That goes both ways since we all know that some people are almost impossible to please and have left unwarranted negative feedback for their purchase. However, it does pay to read the fine lines and all of the sellers feedback. For the new flute makers trying to get their product recognized, EBAY is a great place for them to start, but they need to offer full refunds, and be able to accept constructive criticism. It is wise to note that someone on EBAY may have sold 500 other items with excellent feedback, but now they are now offering a Native American Flute for the first time. You can do a little homework, or roll those dice! Otherwise, cover your assets! smile.gif Also, try to remember to allow a factor of human error in everyone, since we are all indeed human and prone to error! I need not even begin to discuss our displeasure with damaged packages or delayed shipping since that has already been covered in another worthy post. smile.gif

I do believe there is a notice/article somewhere on EBAY and also on the INAFA site about purchasing a Native American Flute that you may find to be very helpful and informative. If someone could locate and posts those specific articles, I am sure it would be appreciated. Otherwise, this lengthy (opinionated and factual) post should suffice for starters! smile.gif


It may be a good assumption, that a fair amount of people who log onto this portal, have purchased at least one or two flutes in the past that were much less than anticipated.
We could probably also assume, that the majority of people on this portal would not purchase a flute unless they had played it themselves, they heard it played first on a recording, or, . . . that they are extremely familiar with the workmanship and quality of the flutes that they are planning to purchase from a flute maker on EBAY or elsewhere on the Internet. Savvy, eh! smile.gif

Most highly reputable flute makers are known to offer a sound bite of their flutes so that you can hear their flute before considering your bid/purchase. No, not everyone has the equipment, technology, or skills available to offer their customers a sound sample, but there is a way to read between the lines on the feedback comments left for some of these "less than adequate" flute makers. Some feedback may say; "Arrived In A Timely Fashion", "Nice Wood", or "Looks Great", with NO mention at all about the sound quality of the flute. If you find very few to zero (either glowing or very good) positive remarks about the sound quality of a flute on the EBAY feedback for a flute maker, then should probably search elsewhere for a flute!


But then again, let's compare this scenario for a fun example!

Billy Bob "Six Feathers" Valdoochie Johnson JR., has been wolfing down "Two Buck" hamburgers at fast food joints all his natural born life, . . . and once in a blue moon, . . . he would even spring for a double bacon cheeseburger down at the neighborhood greasy spoon called, "Vittles". After all his 44 years of what he considered as "Living Large" . . . It Happened! His high falutin' cousin, Benny "Lone Cactus Sings With Wind" Valdoochie, was visiting all the way from Texas, and offered to cook up Billy Bob his special Big Bertha Angus Burger, along a mess of his secret recipe of "Kill Joy Baked Beans", of which . . . "Six Feathers" had for sure never ever seen or tasted the likes of in his neck of the woods. Well, "Six Feathers" sat down to eat with "Lone Cactus Sings With Wind" and after his first scrumptious bite, he hollered out WOOOO HOOOO and said; "It don't get much better than this!" "Glory Be And Shoot Fire!"; bellowed his increasingly windy cousin who then said; "Some folks just don't realize what they are truly missing out on, until it hits em square in the mouth!" The cousins agreed, and great winds were heard from near and far!

That being said, . . . If someone wishes to start out learning how to play on a $45.00 flute that fits their current budget, then so be it. Flute folks with a acquired ear for a "Fine Flute" could probably fill the Rose Bowl with all of the permanently parked unpleasant sounding flutes that are rendered as fairly worthless, except as perhaps fire starters. That would be the bon fire of the century, but I think California has already experienced enough smoke to last them another decade or two.

Having a "not so great" or "cheap flute" in the house could be an advantage when there is a snot nosed sticky fingered little rug rat lurking who insist on playing/toying with one of your precious flutes. You can simply reach for that old dust collector and say; "Go right ahead little Jimmie, . . . You are more than welcome to play this one! " : )

Let it also be said, that some flute folks and recording musicians truly love owning some "Funky Flutes" that have a totally unique sound quality nothing like their "tuned" flutes. Some like a cool buzz in their flute, some like a crying squeal, and some like . . . way beyond warble! smile.gif


The good news is, that there are indeed many fine flute makers who sell their flutes on EBAY, and that venue frequently offers quite a few people a chance to "Win" and then own a truly great flute at a reasonable price. The other good news is that many flute players have the opportunity to periodically attend flute festivals so that they may closely examine and play hundreds of flutes made by dozens of wonderful flute makers. I know someone who probably would have returned many "Internet" flutes if she had not been able to attend a flute festival and finally adopt a fantastic sounding Low D that was comfortable and perfectly suited for her skinny little fingers. Hands on, is a good thing!

EBAY is said to also be great place to get a "slightly used" flute from someone who is downsizing their oversized collection. smile.gif

Speaking of which, many thanks to the Flute Portal for offering flute folks another great place to purchase flutes via the classified section.

With appreciation for all the "song sticks" that sing so well, SongBird
RhythmRancher
Greetings BirdSong,
Your words are true and full of insight!
Thanks so much for being here,
peace&love ~RR
tootieflutie58
QUOTE(RhythmRancher @ Jul 4 2008, 05:35 PM) *
Greetings BirdSong,
Your words are true and full of insight!
Thanks so much for being here,
peace&love ~RR


Hi RhythmRancher,

Welcome to the forum!

Glad you've joined us!
Heartsong Man
Howdy and welcome aboard there RhythmRancher! wink.gif Many Blessings...Robert
David.D
Hello RR. Welcome to the forum.
dd
greybeard
Welcome RR, glad you decided to join us.

Birdsong, my opinion is this: E-Bay is no different than any market place. "Caveat Emptor" is the rule but you need to be a discerning buyer no matter where or who you purchase from.

Best,
Ed
Rick McDaniel
Ebay is nothing more than a marketplace, and they are perfectly content to have all kinds of sellers....good ones, and not so good ones. It is up to the buyer to ascertain whether they are getting a good buy or not, and of late, there have been a limited number of good buys, although there have been a good number of not so good buys, or just plain overvalued purchases.
greybeard
QUOTE(Rick McDaniel @ Jul 4 2008, 05:51 PM) *
It is up to the buyer to ascertain whether they are getting a good buy or not, and of late, there have been a limited number of good buys, although there have been a good number of not so good buys, or just plain overvalued purchases.



....And if you win a flute with a $49 bid, well, you probly won a $49 flute blink.gif
Rick McDaniel
Not necessarily. I got one for $38. once, that was a $400. regular price flute, and it is the best of 3, I have from that maker. Got one of Geoffrey's redwood duet drones at a substantial savings, that is a wonderful flute. On the other hand, I had to return a flute I took a chance on, once, also. Most of my ebay purchases have been at least ok, and I came out well more often than not......but, I do consider it very important to have experience with what you buy. It is not a good place for new players with little experience to buy a good flute, unless they get advice from a more experienced player, first.
Anthony Lee
Birdsong,
Interesting post. As a relatively new maker myself and just stepping into selling rather than gifting, I heard enough bad things about ebay flutes I decided to step away from that approach. I went forward with a domain name, and am currently putting together a web site for my flutes. With the limited equipment I do have, I fully intend to include sound samples of each flute. Your post may change my paradigm about ebay, but the website will be my main focus. Thanks for the input, and insight.
Anthony

Cool Breeze
I've had mixed success buying flutes on Ebay. I did pick up a beautiful, lightly used JP Gomez flute several years back at a great discount. I agree that buying used "name" flutes on Ebay is probably the best use of your resources. I have gotten a few flutes from not as well known makers. Some I've really liked and others I've either given away or are collecting dust. Even a lot of positive feedback on Ebay for a maker is not a guarantee of getting a well made flute. Some established makers, like Charles Littleleaf and the Fallen Branch people, seem to sell almost exclusively on Ebay.

Dave
Heartsong Man
I would have to agree with the point that there are a mixed bag of flutes on ebay. I have gotten some "Real Deals" cause someone has wound up with a flute that they know absolutely nothing about or because someone is mad at their ex-whatever and are getting back at them by selling their prized possesions while they are gone. ohmy.gif Then on the other hand I have also gotten just a couple that wasn't worth the price of shipping them to me much less the bidding price! angry.gif But that is the chance you take when you buy without seeing them in person. Can't go by the looks either cause I got one that had the Best "Horse Head" carved on the end of it and Man whoever made this one was an Artist because that thing was so real looking... but they weren't a Flutemaker because when I tried to play it it sounded like a Bullfrog with a June Bug caught in its throat!!! blink.gif and then I got a couple that were just plain looking and they played great! So its just a roll of the Dice for sure! wink.gif Many Blessings...Robert
Marsha
Can't go by the looks either cause I got one that had the Best "Horse Head" carved on the end of it and Man whoever made this one was an Artist because that thing was so real looking...
[/quote]


Horse Head, you say! smile.gif
I have a flute that was purchased on EBAY that has a totally WOW horse head on it too! It was carved by Chris B. Sound familiar? He informed me that he was giving up on making flutes since he was having difficulty with the tuning aspect of his creations, but he is actually an award winning artist and I think his carving skills are amazing. I sure hope he will consider giving flute making another spin since the little "B" that he sold to me does not qualify at all as a dust collector. smile.gif


















mountainflute
l
Heartsong Man
Hi Marsha, I got this flute from some people that knew nothing about it, and there are no Maker's Marks on it. It has a slight Bow in it and it is made from Walnut. I might try and get some pictures of it tommorrow and post them for you to see. Many Blessings...Robert
Heartsong Man
QUOTE(mountainflute @ Jul 5 2008, 09:22 PM) *
Heartsong man can you post a pic of that horse head flute? was it the one they was auctioning off to help some one out will med bills?
Dennis
Hey Mike I will get some shots of it tommorrow. I don't remember if that was the cas or not, I got it for $32.00 + Shipping so I didn't get hurt too bad. It is a Beautifully carved Piece I would love to salvedge it if I could. Many Blessings...Robert
Heartsong Man
Er... Sorry Dennis, I was talking with my friend Mike on the Phone while I was trying to answer your Post! blink.gif As you can tell I'm not cut out for "multi-Tasking"!!! laugh.gif Many Blessings...Robert
Heartsong Man
Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment Hey Marsha and Dennis, Here are some pictures of that Flute. Many Blessings...Robert
tootieflutie58
That is a nice looking flute!

Have you tried fiddling with it to see if you can improve the sound?
Rick McDaniel
Robert, that one looks similar to David Nighteagle's style of flute. His are usually well marked, though.
Heartsong Man
Hey Rick, Yes it does look like a "Nighteagle" flute That is what I thought it might be when I started bidding on it, but you are right about his being "marked well" as I I have had Three Nighteagle Flutes that were all Signed and Numbered. I think some one was trying to copy his style though ,but you can tell they are slightly different in looks when you see this one in person. If it was a Nighteagle Flute I wouldn't have had to write this as all the Nighteagle flutes I've had played really well! I guess I will go ahead and mess with the Holes some as I can't mess it up anymore than it is already. blink.gif Its truly a shame that someone put that much time in the looks and then its like they just drilled 6 holes in it without regards to tuning? huh.gif Well if I mess it up any more I guess I could pull a "Godfather" on it and cut the Horsehead off and attach it on another flute. unsure.gif Many Blessings...Robert
Marsha

Hi Robert! I do not believe your EBAY "horse flute flute" was made by the same artist as the guy that carved my horse head totems/blocks , but your flute is really amazing. I'll bet a whole quarter that there would be more than a couple of flute makers who would jump at the opportunity to tinker with that cool flute to try and give it a much better voice.

Hopefully, I have inserted a PIC of the two horse head flutes that I got from Chris B. smile.gif
Blessings returned, Marsha



Heartsong Man
Hey Marsha, Nice Flutes! smile.gif Many Blessings...Robert
RhythmRancher
Howdy Robert,
What a wild thing to see this flute again. i also saw it on eBay last year and was going to bid on it, but forgot. When i saw that it finally went for only $32, and that i had totally forgot about bidding on it, i was sad. The carving of the horse head looks exquisite. what a beauty! and what a small world it seems to be that we live in, especially when you love the flute smile.gif
Thankyou Robert, as well as Jan, David, and Ed, for the kind welcome to this forum. I appreciate the warm and friendly vibes here!
peace/love ~RR
mountainflute
that horse head not the same one i seen but simular does the flute use a brass spacer?

hey Rhythmrancher good to see you here

Dennis
Heartsong Man
QUOTE(mountainflute @ Jul 6 2008, 11:32 AM) *
that horse head not the same one i seen but simular does the flute use a brass spacer?

hey Rhythmrancher good to see you here

Dennis
Hey Dennis, No it did not have one when I received it.Many Blessings...Robert
bigsky
First of all...Birdsong...thanks for the topic...great info that I needed to know as I have just recently started crusing E-bay for a "good deal!" Robert... too bad about that beautiful flute sounding poorly...I'm with Jan and Marsha on that one...could anyone "tweak" that flute into submission?!?!? Marsha...the blocks on your flutes are just works of art! Too bad Chris B. gave up on making "dust collectors!" wink.gif I'm glad yours aren't... And RR...Welcome to the forum! Looking forward to your posts!
Noisy Bear
Birdsong;
My personal mantra is to avoid ebay all together. Exceptions are if there is a flute offered by a private party from a reputable maker. Mostly what I see on Ebay is crap. I have advised serious flute makers to avoid ebay. To me it screams "your flutes are too crummy or cheap to sell in the mainstream market place. " Obvioulsy folks will need to thin the ranks from time to time, I have done so myself, and ebay is a viable means to do so. I have no flutes in my collection from makers who regularly sell on ebay save one. This maker was just getting started and I was able to get a very nice carved end flute. There are dealers like Mac Lopez who offer some great flutes from time to time on ebay. You will notice that Mac does so judicioulsy. I respect him for that. One of my personal rules of life, if it looks (sounds) too good to be true..............it most likely is too good to be true!" One rarely gets something for nothing.

So you have stated most of my sentiments regarding ebay quite eloquently, no need to be redundant............buyers beware! But this is just one flute addicts opinion!
Marsha
Thanks BigSky! My "Horse Heads" and many other terrific EBAY flute purchases are truly functional works of art!
I sometimes miss the fact that you can no longer see who is bidding on certain items. Before EBAY hid the bidder names, I would exchange emails with a very cool pal of mine in California who would ask me if I was going to drop a last minute bid on certain flutes so that we would not be in competition with each other. We both had our hearts set on several flutes that were made by Dennis, of Mountainflutes. It was sort of tough to arm wrestle for a flute over the Internet, but we managed quite well. smile.gif Dennis may have enjoyed watching us really duke it out over one of his flutes, but we came to a quite rational "gentleman's" agreement about which flutes we could simply not live without! smile.gif

Peace, and happy flute hunting, Marsha

PS Many thanks to all of you who welcome the new forum folks!






Jeff G
I have purchase flutes off of Ebay. Only one from a particular maker was bad!! If you are careful who you buy from you can get occasionally get OK deals.

Frankly, I have paid less for better flutes by buying from makers.
mountainflute
QUOTE(Noisy Bear @ Jul 7 2008, 06:54 AM) *
Birdsong;
My personal mantra is to avoid ebay all together. Exceptions are if there is a flute offered by a private party from a reputable maker. Mostly what I see on Ebay is crap. I have advised serious flute makers to avoid ebay . To me it screams "your flutes are too crummy or cheap to sell in the mainstream market place. " Obvioulsy folks will need to thin the ranks from time to time, I have done so myself, and ebay is a viable means to do so. I have no flutes in my collection from makers who regularly sell on ebay save one. This maker was just getting started and I was able to get a very nice carved end flute. There are dealers like Mac Lopez who offer some great flutes from time to time on ebay. You will notice that Mac does so judicioulsy. I respect him for that. One of my personal rules of life, if it looks (sounds) too good to be true..............it most likely is too good to be true!" One rarely gets something for nothing.

So you have stated most of my sentiments regarding ebay quite eloquently, no need to be redundant............buyers beware! But this is just one flute addicts opinion!


Hi Noisy Bear
would you mind letting us all know who you are? or is it top secret biggrin.gif
Dennis Lombard
Mountainflutes
North Central Idaho
tootieflutie58
He's the bear that snores!! laugh.gif
Rick McDaniel
Noisy Bear is that dude that writes stuff for the INAFA newsletter all the time, because he has a lot of free time on his hands. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
greybeard
QUOTE(Noisy Bear @ Jul 7 2008, 06:54 AM) *
I have advised serious flute makers to avoid ebay. To me it screams "your flutes are too crummy or cheap to sell in the mainstream market place. "



I agree with sentiment of Noisy Bears post, but think the above statement is a bit harsh and overreaching..... You gotta start somewhere, tools are expensive, wood and shop supplies are expensive, flutemaking is very time consuming. That doesn't leave a whole lot of time and money trying to break into those "mainstream markets".

Exceptions they might be but thier are several makers that offer a reasonable quality product through E-Bay.

Ed
BirdSong
QUOTE(Noisy Bear @ Jul 7 2008, 06:54 AM) *
Birdsong;
My personal mantra is to avoid ebay all together. Exceptions are if there is a flute offered by a private party from a reputable maker. Mostly what I see on Ebay is crap. I have advised serious flute makers to avoid ebay. To me it screams "your flutes are too crummy or cheap to sell in the mainstream market place. " ... I have no flutes in my collection from makers who regularly sell on ebay save one. . . . . One of my personal rules of life, if it looks (sounds) too good to be true..............it most likely is too good to be true!" One rarely gets something for nothing.

So you have stated most of my sentiments regarding ebay quite eloquently, no need to be redundant............buyers beware! But this is just one flute addicts opinion!



Dear Fellow Flute Addict / Noisy Bear !
What you may, or may not understand about some of the "serious" flute makers that sell their flutes on EBAY, is that they do not have the extra time and often the extra finances needed to deal with their own spiffy web site, (if that is what you are referring to as the "mainstream market"). Numerous flute makers have said that dealing with the Internet in general, takes many hours away from what it is that they would rather be doing, which is crafting quality flutes! There are indeed many reputable flute makers on EBAY, and you can find some of the same great makers at various flute festivals. Some of the flute makers can easily afford the costly travel expenses, accommodations, vendors fees, and food while attending festivals, and many others are restricted by their humble and quite often, only means of support. EBAY offers flute makers a venue where thousands of flute addicts/enthusiasts go to browse on a daily basis to see not only what's available, but also what flues are within their own budget. I know a woman in NC who has a specific collection, and she will literally eat PBJ sandwiches for a month if need be, so that she can obtain another "Prize Possession" Another flute player I know does not have to think twice about anything he wishes to purchase. Strictly beer, or strictly champagne budgets abound, and there are people from all walks of life who fall in the middle of that scenario which is indeed a major factor for the flute makers as well as the buyers.

I would never steer any flute enthusiast away from EBAY. I would simply remind them to shop wisely, read all of the sellers feedback carefully, listen to a sound clip if possible, and make sure the seller offers them a full refund if they are not satisfied with their flute. One other thing, not all flute makers are good photographers, and you may be greatly surprised at how much better the flute and it's fabulous wood grain looks in person.

They say, if you do not like the weather, fear not, it will change! The same goes for keeping an eye out for great flutes on EBAY.

Noisy Bear, I sincerely hope that some of the flute makers that you advised to avoid EBAY, will reconsider and offer flute enthusiast all over the world, a chance to "win" their flute!

~BirdSong~



Noisy Bear
Birdsong

You are of course free to disagree with my sentiments. I have been in the flute community for about 10-12 years. I know many of the top artists well and have assisted many of our top makers market their flutes. I have a collection of 200- 300 flutes and am a fairly good player. Saying more than that is going to sound alot more conceited than I truly am. I read music and tab and have scored a few songs. I have song published in the first INAFA song book that was alot of fun to do.

I suppose some might consider me something of an officenado. I have taken the whole subject of the native flute seriously and have as much passion as anyone I suppose. I have had the great good fortune to have studied with folks like Mary Youngblood, Bob Bellus, Scott August, Mark Holland etc. I have taken classes on making flutes from Scott Loomis, know Lew Price personally, the author of the books most serious flute makers have used in the past. I have written extensively for the Voice of the Wind, had the pleasure of having many artists in my home or been in theirs.

I think I know what a good flute is and have been around long enough to see makers come and go and have some perspective on this community many others may not have. I have been able to preview a number of artists work and critique the music before its release at their request. A couple of the top artists have told me they will try any flute maker I recommend. I have done many paid performances in my area, mc'd the last INAFA convention, taught workshops, and give private lessons. So I say this just to give some background on who I am and where I have been.

I get calls from around the country on a fairly regular basis for recomendations on music and makers. Some of you on this forum have done so in private. Now having said that does not mean I know everything. Of course no one does about anything. I have no axe to grind I have no products to sell, I have many loyalties that may color my judgement , but hey I am just human!
To the question at hand/ I have watched ebay for many years and I feel it has become a dumping ground for a lot of plain junk. I feel if a person is going into this as a business they need to do it right. Most makers have alot of money invested in tools and equipment so the cost of a web site is minimal. Advertising is important. I recommend the VOW, the flute portal, etc. Having a business plan and a marketing strategy is just as important as making a good flute. There are a number of great makers who could testify about my judgement in these matters. Word of mouth may be the best method.
Knowing what I know and have experienced if I were a serious maker I would not a use ebay.Period! A number of makers have ignored my advice. If you could not afford a web site (what a couple hundred a year and you do some of the work yourself) then another option is to contact a reputable dealer and sell flutes through them. Both the ones that come to my mind are also great flute makers in their own right and could help with the craft adn teh marketing. Some have followed this route with a great deal of success.

My feeling is that if a maker is going to take a short cut in marketing,customer service etc, who is not willing to build up a reputation slowly by getting flutes in the hands of the right people and doing things right, then they are probably going to take short cuts in making flutes and lack the dedication needed to become a master flute maker. ( A term much overused in my view)
So I have made flutes, performed on them, taken numerous lessons, listened to countless hours of NAF music and have practiced for hours.
Oh by the way my name is Dan Ricketts AKA the Noisy Bear one of the moderators of this forum.
So for me I would say I might be a voice to consider on questions of the NAF, not omniscient, not one who can automatically pontificate/ not infallible/ have not won any Grammies/ but one who has a fair amount of experience. That said if you still disagree hey it 's free country and I am happy if you can prove me wrong.
PS: I will be out of town for a number of days without access to a computer so if this discussion should continue and I don't jump in right away that's the reason. I will get back at ya! Also I would point out that as an investigator for the State Unemployment office and the current state of the economy, the long hours while good for the flute buying has left me with little time to join in or even read the posts, but I know the portal is flourishing with all your help. It is a great community. It is an honor for me to be included in it! If any of you are ever in my neck of the woods stop in for visit luv to have ya!
Featherwind
Welcome to the forum BirdSong, what a great post! Please forgive my late arrival smile.gif

I have to hold my hand up and admit that the large majority of my small flute collection has come through eBay. My first flute came through a UK maker (when I finally found one after much searching!) as a Christmas gift from my parents, but I discovered him through eBay and then emailed him to enquire about making a flute for me.
At that time I found UK flute makers too expensive for me and turned to eBay in hopes of finding something more suited to my budget...which, rather more accurately, was my parent's budget whenever Christmas time or my Birthday swung round again. ("What would you like for your birthday then Laura?" "Well, I've seen this gorgeous flute from so-and-so..." "What? Another one?!" laugh.gif)

Buying on eBay just became normal for me I guess, since I've always had this assosciation stuck in my head that custom flutes straight from makers were expensive flutes. I've had some hits and a few misses from buying on there, but I don't think it's a bad place to buy flutes...you just have to be in the know and very discerning. I was neither of them at first but I think I've been very lucky with it overall! Of course it also helps if you have a great forum like this full of nice people to turn to for advice, which I wish I'd had before! smile.gif

It is a pain that you aren't able to see the flute and try it out in person (I don't have that luxury anyway living in a country with very few flute makers about so it doesn't bother me too much) but you just have to remember to ask the vital questions...for me these are can I have a sound clip, what's the distance between the playing holes and what diameter are the playing holes? Oh and of course, photos are a must!

If I hadn't bought flutes from eBay I wouldn't have found my two favourite makers so I'm glad really smile.gif
Robin Taylor
I agree with Noisy Bear as he says that the flutes he sees on ebay are mostly crap.
Exept for the fact that he might not see all flutes wink.gif , he says:

MOSTLY !!!

I would also say that the very best flute makers do not offer their flutes on ebay.
The names of those flute makers are often mentioned on this forum.

But there are some really good flute makers that sell their flutes on ebay.

One of them would be Brent Haines of www.woodsounds.net.
Well, actually, it is a friend of him who sells the flutes on ebay.
Hmmm, and it seems they stopped using ebay a few weeks ago...
Anyway, Brent's flutes are great flutes! Different - and on the expensive side...
but absolutely not crap !!!!!

Another flute maker who's flutes I truely appreciate would be Charles Littleleaf.
His flutes have a wonderful spirit. They are not made to play in a technical way,
just to breathe through them... maybe not for anyone, but I love to play
a Littleleaf flute from time to time. A very calming and peace bringing experience.

A last name: I do not consider Miguel Medinas flutes as crap.
They are good flutes and consistent. He uses ebay a lot to sell his flutes.

Cheers,

Robin

Rick McDaniel
Ok, the key to this discussion, is who actually sells on ebay, as a maker. From that standpoint, I would agree with Dan, that only a few good makers actually sell directly on ebay, and some of those only infrequently (and only they know the reasons for that.)

Even Brent does not market on ebay directly, although he obviously has a working relationship, with the seller.

Most of the sellers who sell on ebay, on a regular basis, either do so to build up their clientele, or to try and make buyers aware of them. Some have web sites, and others do not.

On the other hand, Dan, how many times have you been to events, and walked down the rows of flute makers, only to buy from one or two? More than once, I suspect. So the good options at an event, aren't really that much better, I suspect. (At least, that has been my observation.)

My point here, is that finding the best flute makers, is a quest, and it takes a good deal of time and research, and then, that is flavored by your own personal preferences, as a player.

Buying from anyone who you have not had the opportunity to try flutes in person, is always a risk. Including those with excellent reputations. That is because you must find the makers who make flutes the way you personally like.......and believe me, there are many differences in how makers make flutes.

So, my comment is simply that there are good flutes on ebay, and not as good flutes on ebay, and it is up to the buyer to discern what is good for them.

Personally, I could not have acquired all of the flutes I have, without getting some good deals on some of them. Out of that effort, I was disappointed no more than 4-5 times, including my acquisitions of world flutes. In some of those cases, I returned unsatisfactory items, or resold them at my cost. So, for my own experience of only about 100 or so flutes, I would say I am happy to have ebay available as another option.
As far as ebay sellers go, most are not actually makers, or they market other makers as well as their own wares. There are only a few regular sellars, who make their own flutes, and most of those are trying to establish themselves in the marketplace. There is nothing wrong with that approach......but caveat emptor.

Excellent flutes can be found on ebay, from the following makers, either on a regular basis, or periodically, whether from the makers, or as used flutes, from other fluties:

Jonah Thompson (JT Navajo)
High Spirits (Odell Borg)
Woodsounds (Brent Haines)
Charles Littleleaf (Happy Valley Flutes)
Raymond Redfeather
Andrew Begay
Roger McGee

I have seen flutes from these makers, sold by others, used or gently used:

Geoffrey Ellis
J.P. Gomez
John Stillwell
Gary Kuhl
Roger McGee
Pat Haran
Russ Venable
Butch Hall
Ken Light
Chris Ti Coom

among others.

True, that some of those may have been older flutes, which may not have compared to today's wares. On the other hand, some were recent acquisitions, that the original owners had problems playing, or that were purchased with good intentions, only to be sold after giving up on learning to play, or the original owners had financial problems, or whatever.

I have personally bought a Geoffrey Ellis, and 2 Russ Venable flutes off ebay, and missed out on many others that I could not afford. All 3 of those I got, are excellent to outstanding flutes. Many of those I didn't get, that I would have liked, would also have been excellent to outstanding flutes.

What Dan is really trying to say, is he would rather have direct contact with makers he knows he is going to like, vs. dealing with the unknown, or lesser known makers. He personally doesn't think there are really good flutes on ebay, all that often, and in that regard, there is some truth to that. They do not appear there in great numbers, nor are they likely to. Still, for those who diligently watch for a good opportunity, they do come up. I have seen entire collections sold off on ebay, from top makers.

Some guidelines for ebay, I would suggest, are:

Know the maker's wares, or, be willing to gamble on their reputation.
Learn to recognize the physical characteristics of those maker's wares.
Know what that maker charges for their wares, so you know what is or is not, a good deal.
Recognize that not every flute from a maker is a winner, and that some flutes from excellent makers, can find their way onto ebay, because they were not up to the usual quality found.
Be cautious of the age of flutes, as older flutes from reputed makers, may not be of the same quality as today's goods.

If you follow those guidelines, you should be able to find a good option on ebay from time to time.
Cool Breeze
QUOTE
Excellent flutes can be found on ebay, from the following makers, either on a regular basis, or periodically, whether from the makers, or as used flutes, from other fluties


There are several makers I would add to Rick's two lists. Regarding Rick's first list, I personally would include Douglas Thunderhorse (Laura's favorite) and the Fallen Branch flutes.

QUOTE
I have seen flutes from these makers, sold by others, used or gently used:


Adding to Rick's second list, I have also seen flutes by Coyote Oldman, Guillermo Martinez, Stellar and Hawk Littlejohn.

Dave

Marsha

Excellent flutes can be found on ebay, from the following makers, either on a regular basis, or periodically, whether from the makers, or as used flutes, from other fluties:

Jonah Thompson (JT Navajo)
High Spirits (Odell Borg)
Woodsounds (Brent Haines)
Charles Littleleaf (Happy Valley Flutes)
Raymond Redfeather
Andrew Begay
Roger McGee


Howdy Rick, Noisy Bear, and Ya'll

Please note the names below, since these two gentlemen are indeed Very Good Flute Makers that sell their flutes on EBAY and elsewhere!

Dennis Lombard, . . . Mountain Flutes
Jim Adams, . . . Cedar Song Flutes

There are quite a few flute makers that did not get mentioned, but I frequently receive glowing reports from flute enthusiasts about their favorite flutes that they got from various flute makers on EBAY. I personally own a nice batch of totally terrific flutes that were purchased via EBAY auctions. I have been told quite often that some of my reasonably priced flutes far out sing the flutes that cost some folks almost five times the amount of what I paid for some of my flutes. I consider myself very fortunate to own and enjoy those flutes that were crafted by some extremely talented and humble flute makers.

I do not own a "Fallen Branch" flute yet, but those guys had some really incredible flutes at the Oklahoma festival last year, and yes, they sell on EBAY also! Let's see, how about "Earth Flutes", who is a relatively new kid on the block who is getting very high marks on his flutes. Then, how about SwampFox! His flutes generally fall out of my price range, but I know many serious collectors who love his flutes. I do not own a SingingTree flute, but I know many people who really love his flutes. The list goes on!

Yes indeed, there are some excellent flute makers that sell their flutes on EBAY and it would be cool to see a few other flute makers with their flutes on the auction block! smile.gif

Peace Ya'll, Marsha
















Noisy Bear
Marsha:
I think that is where we have differences. There are not many of the names you have listed I personally consider to be fine makers. Some I don't know, that is true so I cannot make a judgement. Many of them I am familiar with and they do not make the grade with me. However I will concede that if someone likes the flutes they get from ebay more power to them. If you think you are getting a good deal and are happy with the flute then all is well. As it is now I find it difficult enough to get a flute from my favorite makers so if everyone rushes to these makers the wait will be longer and the price driven up soooo...... some disagreement with my assesment may actually work to my advantage. biggrin.gif One such maker is not taking custom orders till October!
tootieflutie58
QUOTE(Noisy Bear @ Jul 22 2008, 06:21 PM) *
As it is now I find it difficult enough to get a flute from my favorite makers so if... biggrin.gif One such maker is not taking custom orders till October!


Don't remind me! Besides, you (and I) are partly to blame! We bragged about him too much and everyone listened! laugh.gif

Think we could talk him in to accepting OUR flute orders since we were instrumental in his getting all those orders?!? laugh.gif tongue.gif laugh.gif

Just kidding, Geoffrey! I don't want any favoritsm. I just want flutes! More flutes! Won't October ever get here?!?!? wink.gif
Marsha
QUOTE(Noisy Bear @ Jul 22 2008, 02:21 PM) *
Marsha:
I think that is where we have differences. There are not many of the names you have listed I personally consider to be fine makers. Some I don't know, that is true so I cannot make a judgement. Many of them I am familiar with and they do not make the grade with me. However I will concede that if someone likes the flutes they get from ebay more power to them. If you think you are getting a good deal and are happy with the flute then all is well. As it is now I find it difficult enough to get a flute from my favorite makers so if everyone rushes to these makers the wait will be longer and the price driven up soooo...... some disagreement with my assesment may actually work to my advantage. biggrin.gif One such maker is not taking custom orders till October!



Hey There, Noisy Bear!
I believe the "list" you mentioned was posted by Rick, who I think has some pretty great eyes and ears for what is going on in the majority of flute world. There are so many terrific new and little known flute makers out there, that no one person could possibly be aware of all the folks creating excellent flutes. When you look at the vast number of members on the Yahoo flute making web site, it is apparent that the flute's popularity continues to rise and that there will new flute makers popping up all the time.

We could probably compare some of the flute makers to some really wonderful restaurants across the country. If you like stone crabs, and have a thick wallet, then some folks could tell you exactly where to dine in Miami. I have a favorite delightful Mexican place that I frequent with friends, and it seems to be the perfect place for everyone's taste buds and budget. There are some of those little known hidden places where the atmosphere is cozy, the price is quite reasonable, and the food is simply outstanding. And then, there are some places where you feel quite dissatisfied that you have spent a bundle on an evening out, since you received very poor service along with some not so tasty food. Our appetites, preferences, and budgets for dining out could indeed be quite similar to selecting a flute. I truly wish that every meal and flute could be perfect in every way, but the variables and yin/yang of life still rule. Some of the flutes on EBAY may appear to be like some rather unsatisfying "Fast Food" to many, but there are indeed some incredibly tasty morsels out there to be found. And, if someone is served an unsatisfactory meal, then I hope that are always able to send it back to the kitchen until the chef gets it right! smile.gif

It seems to me, that there are many very good (fine) flute makers with a ongoing waiting list! That is also why some flute folks have not seen many or any flutes listed on EBAY recently by certain flute makers since they are too busy filling orders to have any flutes left over to sell in that market. If these flute makers are that busy, then we are all doing an excellent job of spreading the joys of fluting. I sincerely wish that many flute folks will have the opportunity to savor many delightful flutes created by a number of various highly skilled flute makers. smile.gif I may or may not, have it in my budget to splurge for an extravagant four course lobster dinner, but I am otherwise more than satisfied with the excellent, memorable, and moderately priced meals that I have been served. smile.gif

Peace, Marsha
Rick McDaniel
Nice analogy, Marsha. That is actually a pretty good way of looking at it! biggrin.gif
Noisy Bear
Marsha

I myself have been around and own a great deal of flutes. I grant you there are new makers coming on all the time. I am working with one myself at the moment. His craft is coming along nicely. I have personally played flutes from most of the makers listed and simply feel they are not master flute makers..........at least not yet. You and Rick can disagree and you have done so quite respectully and I appreciate that. I have posted some nice comments in this forum regarding some new makers that are doing some good work, namely John Kulias of meadowlark flutes and John Stillwell of Ancient territorities, as well as Randy Stenzel of Featerridge flutes. BTW I have or have had flutes in my collection now or in the past from the vast majority of these makers listed. No one has to give my opinion any weight at all, I throw it out for what it is worth. I have two close flute friends with large collections and a good deal of knowledge who used to buy many flutes on ebay and now never do. I have no doubt there are some diamonds in the rough out there ready to make a splash. My intent is to just raise some red flags so that folks know at least some in the flute community have observed the overall poor quality flutes offered there.

I would consider bidding only on a flute made by a well known established maker. So we can just agree to disagree. There are some good posts on this thread folks can read and get differing points of view and then they can decided for themselves the course they want to follow. BTW no hard feelings here that you disagree. I think it is cool to be able to get differing points of view here on a subject. I just wish our local newspaper would do the same! I appreciate your comments keep up the good work! The ebay thing has been irksome to me for some time so I appreciate a place to vent. Thanks to all for their patience. Happy flute hunting!
Marsha
[quote name='Noisy Bear' date='Jul 24 2008, 04:59 PM' post='6421']
Marsha
I have personally played flutes from most of the makers listed and simply feel they are not master flute makers... My intent is to just raise some red flags so that folks know at least some in the flute community have observed the overall poor quality flutes offered there.

So we can just agree to disagree.



Greetings Noisy Bear!

How many average (middle to lower income) folks do you suppose can actually afford to own several flutes made by a "Master Flute Maker"?

I am told, that one of the very best flute players in the world is capable of making incredible music with nothing more than a blade of grass! smile.gif I can only imagine how that flute player could make just about any flute that was made by a "good" flute maker, sound wonderful.

It is not in my plans to ever perform or record for the masses, and I feel that there must be thousands of flute lovers like me, that simply wish to own some very good flutes that did not cost somewhere close to a months salary, which in itself is a huge variable since folks from virtually every walk of life have fallen in love with the flute.

I own a "Master" flute, that is made from a particular exotic wood that smells as though the south bound end of a bear loaded with fat starter has been set on fire when I play that particular flute outside on a semi humid day. Otherwise, that flute is perfect for an air conditioned environment, yet I prefer to play it outside since it is a screaming high C that can be easily heard from well over a half of a mile away through the woods! smile.gif One of my other so called "Master" flutes that I own turned out to be much like a troublesome car that was built on a Monday by an auto worker with a hang over and a bad attitude! smile.gif Perhaps there should be some sort of lemon law for flutes! smile.gif
My previous analogy could have been for automobiles instead of restaurants! smile.gif What some of this discussion may simply boil down to, is that whomever has the most money, may own the most expensive cars, eat at the most expensive restaurants, and own some of the most expensive flutes. However, he or she, no matter their income, and who chooses wisely, may indeed own numerous flutes at a very reasonable price, that were made by some very talented flute makers.

Yes, please do send out the red flags for the sorry/poor quality flutes on EBAY that do not have a voice worthy of the wood! However, also please try to realize that there are indeed some truly wonderful flutes out there that greatly please the folks who have embraced the magical sounds of the NAF.

Noisy Bear, I do not totally disagree with you, and I certainly do not wish to disagree with Rick! smile.gif You are both a great asset to the flute community and a wealth of information . . . but . . . I just happen to have a different (heritage induced) frugal and highly practical perspective on many aspects of life! smile.gif

As a flute community, I feel that it is vital that we share information about all the flute makers that are making quality flutes, and perhaps, with great emphasis on the some of the more affordable flutes so that we can best promote the NAF for all the beginners. Let's face reality and admit that a beginning flute player would not very likely be spending several hundred dollars on their first flute. I would venture to guess, that as everyone's Flute Fever climbs, so does their taste and revised budget for flutes.

Noisy Bear, I really do think it is terrific that you and many other folks are able to own an abundance of wonderful flutes with many of them being crafted by "Master Flute Makers", but for those of us that only care to own a few to a couple of dozen flutes (more or less), I feel that we need to be quite open and honest about all the terrific flutes available that range from simplistically good, . . . to supremely stellar! smile.gif

Peace & Practicality, Marsha smile.gif




Geoffrey
If there is one thing that is apparent to me, having played a lot of different flutes over the years from many different makers, it is this: Quality and price do not necessarily have any relationship to one another.

Some of the worst flutes I've ever played were also the most expensive I'd ever picked up. I've literally found flutes that didn't actually play the top three notes at all! I mean they just make whistling air noises (these flutes were in a gift shop in Northwest Portland, OR) and they cost close to $300. They were not exactly eye candy either.

My first High Spirits flute was $60 and played better than flutes from a well known maker (at the time) who sold the same key for $500. A fancy flute, but totally sub-par in terms of sound and playability.


Marsha
[quote name='Geoffrey' date='Jul 25 2008, 05:50 PM' post='6471']
If there is one thing that is apparent to me, having played a lot of different flutes over the years from many different makers, it is this: Quality and price do not necessarily have any relationship to one another.


Greetings Geoffrey!

Thank you so much for that positively practical statement! smile.gif

Harmoniously, Marsha








flutemaker
I'm not an eBay user but as a flute maker I can help you with a flute that may not play well. If you have one that has magnificent detail on it and it just needs to be tweaked so it plays to your liking, wrap a $10 bill around it and send it to me in a triangular box or tube. I'll rework the sound hole and cutting edge, plug any leaks, and in some cases, re tune it so all of the notes play the correct interval from the fundamental (according to the Korg tuner) This may require filling a hole and re drilling it if it is too large or enlarging a hole that may be too small.

Re working a sound hole (usually the square hole) often raises the fundamental slightly. Since almost all of the physics happens right there, the sound can often be improved. It may take me 15 minutes or 3 days but it will only cost $10 (USPS Priority insured) . That's usually enough to cover the shipping and handling of beer costs. I'll return it in the same box.

If there are other issues with a flute that are unnoticed, I'll contact you prior to making adjustments. The big one is usually a crack along a seam line. Fixing a crack can muck up the exterior looks depending on the finish. Another difficult fix is a warped recessed nest. If it warped once, it will probably warp again. Recessed nests are not my thing but I can work with them.

As for my experience ... I've made thousands of flutes and stopped counting a long time ago. I've fixed many that were shattered into pieces, slammed in car doors, chewed by dogs, and thrown across rooms (by accident of course), left on top of cars, stepped on, sat on, this list is as varied as the excuses that busted them. I do not fix ugly carvings on the outside. The latest "fix" was improving the tone of a Littleleaf flute for it's new owner who acquired it in a trade. She didn't like the sound quality although Charles, the original maker, has a specific style of air delivery that ALWAYS produces that particular tonal characteristic in his flutes. Not to judge his style of flute making, his flue is in the bird so his cutting edge is "on the floor" so to speak. This doesn't make a most efficient use of air delivery and the resulting tone can have many overtones that the previous owners didn't like. So it was traded away several times. By making a very slight flue in the flute body and reducing the flue in the bird, we essentially "moved" the cutting edge (without moving it) so it was centered in the air stream exiting the flue. The result might not please Mr. Littleleaf, but it did please the new owner. Now she can try other birds that have a flat bottom, or wing walls, of overhangs and change up the results.

It's good to put a little flexibility into making a flute. It's not the same as "fixing" a Picasso and making it "look" like the Mona Lisa. It's all about the music. I used to say "A blind man can't see a flute." I stopped saying that after a blind fellow at the Potomac show picked up one of my simple flutes, ran his fingers over it, played it and said "Nice flute, Needs more sanding" and handed it back to me. I sat there like Cletis the Slacked Jawed Yokel.

If any of you are going to be at the Oklahoma Flute Festival or the Doc Green Silverhawk Gathering, bring along your tired flutes and I'll look them over and either fix them there or explain the fix so you can adjust it yourself. Every "bad" flute can have a second chance to sing.

Tsunami Flutes
110 Severn Ave.
Annapolis, MD 21403
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2012 Invision Power Services, Inc.