During service in the Navy I was stationed aboard an aircraft carrier. There as well as in boot camp and in school one of the many things I learned was how to use profane language. Now don't get me wrong even prior to my time in the service I knew how to swear. It was required by my peers in order to be cool. My time in the Navy fine tuned this skill!it was an essential part of communication...

Once out of the Navy I realized, by the reactions from the people around me, that my skill's as a user of profane language were abrasive and offensive so retraining myself was necessary and desired.

I met a young man (in his early 30's) last year who come's from a difficult environment. Swearing is one of his plates of armor. He was in need of an environmental change so now he lives here in Maine and is at our home regularly.
As you may have guessed we do not swear in our home nor do we use subsitute words such as "darn" or "crap" etc.

He on the other hand uses swearing in every sentence. I asked him about it and he suggested swearing is about intent not the word. For him the swear words he uses are merely descriptors~only when he directs it towrds a person with intent to cause discomfort does he consider it swearing. It's really interesting....

We arranged for him to use a house which is at the end of our driveway consequently he is here almost everyday. My family understands and does not expect him to change BUT he also recognizes how we and our friends speak so he has begun to make changes on his own.

Swearing is not new. Why do we do it? I am very interested in how we use language which is so much more than the words...

I know this might be to intimate a subject for lengthy discussion and it is not about right or wrong~no judgements.

I believe there are several factors in why swearing is/is not used. One, as you stated about your time in the Navy, it was how you fit in and are accepted by your peers. Another, it's how you are raised. If your parents swear all the time, you probably will also. I feel environment is a key in all our habits. When our environment changes - such as the young man who is on your property now - we tend to change or conform to the stronger influences. Your families influence is the stronger force now, so he is changing to that influence.....
My 2 cents......
Beth

Hawk,

You are stepping on my toes here. I used not to swear, but it has crept into my language in recent years, and I am trying to eradicate it.

When I didn't swear, I looked at swearing as a limited use of vocabulary. The person was just to lazy to come up with a better adjective or verb. In some instances, that is probably true. This seems to be what your friend is saying:

"He on the other hand uses swearing in every sentence. I asked him about it and he suggested swearing is about intent not the word. For him the swear words he uses are merely descriptors"

My own forays into swearing began with expression of strong emotion...usually pain, such as dropping a board on my foot. But, my swearing has spread into other times, often when I am trying to give vent to a strong emotion, such as anger. In other words, I have come (subconsciously) to associate the use of profanity with the release of strong emotion and vice versa. So that when my emotions are high, so is my profanity rate. This also seems evident in your friend:

"only when he directs it towrds a person with intent to cause discomfort does he consider it swearing. It's really interesting...."

The reason I have been trying to once again control my tongue is that I realized that my use of profanity is saying something else far more troubling about me....that I am failing to adequately control/direct my emotions and am, rather, giving in to outbursts of temper. To me, my use of profanity is saying to others that I am not controlling my emotions, and that I am too lazy to think through better word choices.

The real drawback is that if I am just spewing profanity at my wife because I am upset, then I have failed in 3 vital areas:

1) to state the issue in concrete terms
2) to establish productive communication with her
3) to treat her with the respect she deserves not only as my wife, but also as a human being of worth.

These failures do not speak well of me. Consider this posting a public confession. mea culpa!

Swearing, I believe, is a shortcut. An abreviation. It's often a statement about how a person feels in the moment and can be convenient because it is extrememly short. Rather than say "OW, OW, OW, I hit my thumb with the hammer and it really, really hurts and I'm angry with myself and I can't understand why I did it, etc.......", a simple "S" word or "F" word is a lot easier and simpler to say.

Unfortunately, people are also ignorant (not educated) or lazy and swearing ends up substituted for real communication, often because they either do not possess the skills to communicate on a higher level or, as mention, they are simply lazy and have fallen into the habit.

Also unfortunately, it seems to be a peer thing as well and those who speak a certain way tend to continue to do so because of the group they hang out with.

In the United States, at least, I see the use of swear words as an adaptation to your audience. If those around you swear, you are more likely to do the same to get your point accross.

Haven't you noticed if you spend time where the accent is different than your own, your speech starts adapting the those around you?

When I was growning up my mother always wanted to "discuss" the situation when we got in trouble. She always won the argument due to her use of what we called the "big words". Words above our language skills. As a result all of her children have a great vocabulary. However, I have found, in some situations I have to drop the "big words" so as not to confuse my audience. Not to say I'm any smarter, usually not. Just have more words in my head.

In the great quest for communication with others I will use any word in my arsenal, including swearing if need be.

Penni

I think the key here is the topic title "Swearing" because you can swear without using the "bad" words. I wonder who way back when got to pick the "bad" words. The trouble with that is that people focus on the word itself instead of the intent and why it is a bad thing. Parents tell their kids - don't say that word - Why? - because it's a bad word. Many don't bother to explain intent, respect, controlling anger and so forth. This focus is carried out in public censorship. Anyone watch the TV series Battlestar Gallactica? They made up a word - Frack - and substituted it IN EVERY WAY for the F word and got away with it because it wasn't on the LIST of bad words put out by the censors. I find that both hilarious and sad.

Personally, I'm not offended by any word anyone uses and I sometimes use profanity myself. But I do believe that we have to play nice in society and be aware of those around us that might be offended. Some might say that's their problem, but I think it's just common courtesy and respect for the feelings of those around us. I can be offended by someone's lack of respect or lack of control, whether they're using profanity or not.

Actually I remember my Platoon Sergeant in the army use "Fracking" quite frequently. The way he said it was most comical...
This was back in 1982. So I think BG stole it from the military, but for me it made the show even more realistic. Galactica really nailed it from a military POV.
Which is my problem when it comes to swearing... I got quite a bit of it growing up, but I became a master swearer in the Army. What can I say?? I was in an Infantry battalion... it happens...
After the Army it had became habit, so now I find I need to be really careful cencering myself. Not because I'm trying to offend or anything... it's just for 3 very hard years it was all I knew. Something like that sticks, even after this many years.

My wife has changed me. I can't swear at all around her. she won't put up with it and it has made me a better person. What is swearing but a way of being rude and profane. At least from my point of view.My environment before her never did anything about my swearing so it continued.Now I think twice and very rarely swear.

On another forum they use the "B" word regularly. I don't like it so I don't use it.
It's a forum for Newfoundland dog's...

Well sh*t Hawk... hell of a topic, hell of a topic my man!

Clear "*CENSORED*" Notes,

Hey watch it mister or else open wide!!!!

I agree that a lot of swearing is a environmental based learned behavior.
Initially, you use those words for thier impact, or emotional value, but once
the use of the words becomes so common - they loose the original shock
value. I work in a setting where I am accostomed to hearing new forms
and uses of the common ones. Once a 'shock value' word looses it's original
punch, it is free to be used as a verb, adverb , adjective, or as a non-
sequiter insert-

The young man I spoke of in my original post comes from a culture where using vulgar/profane language is the norm. It's very natural for him even when outside of the cultural environment.
As mentioned he now lives in a new environment both geographically and culturally. We had lots of folks at our home for the past week and it has been fascinating to watch (listen) peoples reaction to his language as well as his effort to change it.
We (my family/friends) will not force anything on him and yet by nature of the way we speak in essence we are.

Is there concern of respect and offense by those who routinely use abrasive language?

Swearing is part of most languages. It can just be a crass form of language, an easy escape. It can also be used very effectively to reinforce intent of a statement. You can easily over use foul language. When someone does this people tend, at least subconsciously, think less of what they say. If someone that normally does not use that type of language uses it for reinforcement of their message, people take note.

Hawk, you're giving him a chance to learn to be bilingual. That will serve him well if he takes advantage of it.

My father would never use a 50 cent word when a five dollar word would do, so I grew up with a huge vocabulary. It got me in a lot of trouble as a kid. (Still does if I'm not careful. 50 cent words are better, assuming you want people to understand you.) Dad rarely swore when I was a kid. I learned my first swear words from my mother, who had a secret vocabulary she would use when she broke the dishes. Those words were relatively mild. After I moved away from home swear words were everywhere, and they started to creep into my everyday speech. It wasn't long before I could make a sailor blush and not even realize I was swearing.

Several years ago I started hanging around a different group of people, and they took offense at my abrasive language. I didn't have a clue how vulgar my speech had become until I saw their reactions to it. That was when I began to clean up my act. It was a slow but mostly successful process.

Now the swear words are creeping back in again. My father recently moved in with me. He rarely swore when I was a kid. He swears a lot now - mixed in with the $5 words. He doesn't seem to realize it. And I find myself reverting to trashmouth mode simply because I'm around it again.

Swearing is a habit, like chocolate or ice cream. It's hard to stop once you get started. Kudos to the young man at your house for recognizing it and attempting to shift it. And kudos to you, Hawk, for creating an environment where that is possible.

Namaste.

Coatlique

Should we be offended by foul language?

Is there a downside to profanity?

A good analogy here would be tattoos on visible parts of the body or rings in the nose or lips, tongue studs and weird colored hair. Do these "adornments" interfere with a person's ability to get a job?

Well that depends. If the job is selling shorts in a board shop the answer is no. A tongue stud wouldn't be bad at all. But if the high paying job is selling heavy equipment to construction executives or receptionist in an oncologist's office it may be a different story. The person hiring may feel that the nose ring and lime green hair is not good for business. So if you want to get one of those jobs it might be a good idea to skip the piercings and the odd colored hair.

In the same way, profanity may be perfectly acceptable in some circles. It will not be acceptable in every setting. A person who cannot control their language may find that they are limited.
Art

What is the real meaning of words?

Can these meanings morph like a modern animation?

Here is an interesting story that is slightly off topic:

When I was in college I worked in a steel mill during the summers to help pay my way. The steel mill was a real melting pot with workers of every race, culture and nationality. When a new employee arrived on the worksite the first thing that was asked (even sometimes before the name) was "hey man, what's your nationality?" The new worker was being judged immediately. He was expected to openly admit his culture and to do it with pride. Any hesitation or reluctance was interpreted to mean that the worker was ashamed of his heritage and thus a sign of weakness. Once the new worker revealed his nationality he was immediately labeled by the most despicable derogatory term that applies to that nationality. These derogatory labels stuck. If you were the only one of that heritage they would call you the "k__e" or the "w__p" or the "d__o" or whatever.

As the summers unfolded (I worked in the steel mill for 5 summers) I noticed an interesting transformation. Situations would arise where the workers depended on each other. Sometimes the work was hot and exhausting. Everyone depended on everyone else to do their share. In tight spots a worker would do as much as he could until one of his "buddies" took over. The laborers formed a tight knit team. After work the team would head to the nearest tavern where they would share a few beers, shoot some pool and relax after a hot day. Still, they were calling each other by the same derogatory names.

That's when I would start to notice the transformation. These slurs and slanders no longer carried any sting. In fact, they became terms of endearment. But it was necessary to go through the "rites of passage" before the transformation would occur.

Of course if one left the tight knit labor group the names were just as derogatory as ever. So context is everything and these words carried no fixed inherent meaning.

Art

All I have to say on the subject is:

At no time is freedom of speech more precious than when a man hits his thumb with a hammer.

Good food for thought Hawk.Typically if I find myself cursing it is caused by environment (if not a hammer ).

Ed



PS: Did you read Beetle Baily growing up : #$&%!@*%

That Beatle Baily was a foul mouth SOB for sure.
At various times in my life I swore as part of "normal" conversation. Working in the tannery, paper mills and the such, it was the way we talked. Don't do it much nowadays but it creeps into the conversation on occasion.
Intent is always the thing with these words.
When I found a stray dog had snuck into be camper van I named her after the first words that came from my mouth ...GD
Still have that dog and she still gets her tail wagging when I call her.
Kuz

Our dog also answers to Sh*t Head.

Sometimes, a particular blasted word can actually help to release your stinkin' frustrations. Perhaps folks who infrequently use the "F" word, or darn, or whatever, may actually be blowing off steam by using a particular word, and therefore be lowering their blood pressure. Eureka!

When I worked in a highly stressful trauma center many years ago there were numerous medical personnel that used the initials "C F" that can be used for the phrase Chinese Fire Drill, . . . but it actually meant Cluster . . . ummm . . . you know what! Circumstantially, we would also use several other venting initials instead of using very inappropriate curse words in the work place . . . and we only used those initials amongst ourselves.

I have experienced the misfortune of encountering a considerable amount of incompetent physicians, and my very dear nurse pal and I recently came up with a new phrase word with an island twist that definitely helps to relieve our frustrations with humor for . . . . DamnDumbDocsDem!

I do not mind hearing or using a few choice words every now and then when they are spoken in private conversations, or like when I assisted a cursing gentleman who was covered from head to toe in blood and glass following a horrific car accident, or like "The Choice Word" that I shouted when I tripped and broke my foot, but . . . to hear foul words in every sentence and to hear them used in public can indeed be offensive and unpleasant.

The majority of Flute Festivals, Flute Events, and Pow Wows will often post this statement on their web sites:
This is a family friendly event. No use of alcoholic beverages or illegal drugs will be tolerated. The use of profane or abusive language is unwelcome. Abusers of these rules will be asked to leave the grounds.

You consider THAT to be a swear word? Hmmmmm.....guess I have a different outlook.

One of my favorite old feminist T Shirts says "You call me B**** like you think that's a bad thing!"

Mostly seems to do with the family environment. My Mom and Dad didn't swear and I have found throughout the years that has had a profound effect on me. Even when around other friends that are cursing all around me. I figured if I started, that someday I would slip up at the wrong moment.
Now...with that said....I have been in certain situations that it just came out...and for some reason it felt good or maybe a stress relief that I said it. Even then, it was I consider mild to some other things I've heard. In my younger drinking days..I'm not sure what I said?

swearing seems to be a kid thing thinking there cool or somthing when adults do it its because they lost respect for them selfs and others

Kat I realize that the word used in this context is not a "swear" word. I have Bernese Mountain Dogs and only after I began spending time with people who have pedigree canines did I begin to hear the "B" word used with a different intent. By then I had already been using language that did not include swearing for quite some time.

So if a stranger calls you or a female family/friend a "B" would it be ok? Or if a child in a fit of frustration says F...!!!!! Is this ok?


Much of the "obscene" language that not too long ago would never be heard on TV or Radio is becoming common. I would think this means more it's socially acceptable.
Both England and the US outlawed the printing of it in the 1800's.

This is all very fascinating! I would guess that in many if not all languages there exist's words that are obscene, vulgar rude and offensive even in ASL they exist.
If they are so common why do they offend or cause discomfort for some? Are we just conditioned to respond when a particular swear is used?

Cheese and Crackers! Jimminy Crickets!! Thank doG.
Profane??

Golly Gee Whiz, Hawk! Just jokin' around, of course. I can call MYSELF a B**** and laugh, but someone else better not do it, or this B**** shows her teeth lol!

Just like my thankfully brief fiberglass factory experience, back "in the day". I saw this same behavior with various ethnic co-workers- OK to call oneself, or a bro, a racist epithet, but if anyone outside the group would dare use any of those words...a knife might get pulled!

This whole conversation is interesting, but in a way, somewhat redundant. In a "big picture" sense, language and communication is a free-flowing stream, and running faster and faster all the time, thanks to our modern communications. Now even the Oxford English dictionary is going to go digital, and go on line, reflecting the speed of change in language usage. Language reflects the needs of the culture. This is neither good or bad...it just IS.

Er.......If there is such speed in the change of Language Usage and it is neither "Good or Bad" Then why not change it to better ourselves as in using words that Uplift, Edify, and Comfort one another instead of using the same "Old"? words that irritate, offend, put down or just plain yanks someone's chain? and yes I use to be able and would curse you out in Three Different Languages many Years ago but have changed or mellowed with Time and "Refrain" from using this Manner of Speech and after not using it anymore when I come into Contact with someone who does I realize it usually is just a way for them to get attention whether "Good or Bad" and in my case I just don't care to be around it as much as possible as it seems "Redundant" in a negative way. Words are "Seeds" and once spoken they are planted and only time will tell what the "Harvest" will be and yes Seeds are just Seeds neither Good or Bad unless you wanted a Yard full of Fragrant Flowers and instead what you get is a yard full of "Stinkweeds" Many Blessings...Robert

[quote name='Kat' post='75527' date='Sep 12 2010, 04:53 AM'] Sorry, for the double post the Connection to the Portal is slow and acting wierd on my Computer today? Many Blessings...Robert

Soooooo, Sir Hawk, . . . as a flute maker who handles very sharp implements routinely . . . what particular word or phrase do you say or spout out automatically when you have an injury or a major flute opps? Does the old phrase: "Shoot fire and save matches!" ring a bell?

Thats a difficult question to answer simply:

If I make a major "oops" with a flute usually I stop working (obviously) take a couple breaths then look to see if can be managed. If it can then I do~ if not I put it down, "clean" the shop (not literally if you get my drift) and start another. I am no longer quick to dispose of those "oops" flutes. Most times the "oop's can be remedied in some fashion~then I give them away...

If the oops happens to me well I just keep working. A few times I've cut myself and bled enough that it required a band aid and once (just once) I needed a stitch so I got one. These are the most serious injuries I have had. Rather than swearing I'd rather direct that (usually intense) energy to stopping the bleeding~

Swearing in my opinion is a learned behavior~I've chosen to not use profanity or even to think this way~even when no one is present....

I just have to put in my two cents. I don't like swearing and have never been used to it. On the other hand I know that many people don't mean bad with it and don't comment on it (except if it is my children..). But one thing is fascinating I have seen: the choice of bad words seems to be very different in different languages. One could do a PhD on that

In Dutch the worst bad word is a word calling Gods doom over one self, as well as some derivatives from that.

In swedish the worst word is a calling upon the devil. Another bad word, considered not nice but not as offensive as the "real" word, is to say seventeen or thousand in Swedish. I have found out that most people don't know why it sounds bad and I could not understand the problem. Untill I read that in medieval times it was believed that demons are arranged in units of seventeen and larger units of one thousand... so the original was a calling upon a unit of demons...

In American, as far as I understand from films etc, the most common bad words have sexual implications, as the f-word and its derivatives.
I have sometimes wondered whether those differences have something to do with what our cultures look like.

Any case, I think there are better alternatives to all those words. I'd choose not to offend people by my language use.

Very interesting Gerald!

Hawk, I guess I was basically wanting to know if you actually say Cheese & Crackers or Jimminy Cricket.
Otherwise, I would imagine that Jim Nabors aka Gomer Pyle would certainly spout out "Shazam" if he had an opps while making a flute.

Well Golly Miss Marsha (in my best Gomer voice~loved that show!)
Nope don't say either of those~I did once say Dam but only after one of my girls asked what holds the water back (just kidding)

There are enough word's in our language to use if I stub my toe or a meteor falls on me. No need to swear or even use the replacement swears like cheese and crackers. OWWWWW!!!! or OH MAN THIS HURTS!!! works just as well!

The English language is rich indeed. Why use profanity?

I have always thought the judicious use of language to be dependent on the environment for most cases except where profanity is concerned. Even though my co-workers in the lumberyard use the f-word et al during their daily routine ,should I also use it in front of and with customers due to my environment? Certainly not.
Would we use that same coarse language in front of a judge,the President of the US or any other dignitary?(ever hear lawyers use profanity in court directed at the others there-not a chance! ) No.How about in front of and with our priest,pastor,rabbi or religious leader? No. Why not? Because there is no need for such language.And we should respect others no matter what their station in life.Just because THEY use it does not mean we should.
Other than hitting your finger with that aforementioned hammer,why do humans need coarse language?

Does a gang member dropping f-bombs at the mall deserve respect from everyone around him? Not mine.If one hears a man dressed in a suit and looking business like using the same profanity it certainly shows lack of respect for others as well as himself.

I refuse to use it and choose my words carefully. With all due respect,not picking on anyone in particular,using profanity shows a shallow mind,laziness and immaturity as well as a lack of education on proper language skills.



Sorry to be blunt. Just the way I believe.

Jim

My Mother taught me that "sticks and stones can break a bone, but names will never hurt me". I know that the inherant nature of any word lacks substance, it is only in the context of it's usage that causes pain. I know many people who do not swear but are very spiteful, hateful people and I see them hurt others with their words, yet never utter a swear word.

I simply choose not to create an offended feeling within myself simply by hearing a simple word, but when I see someones dark intent with words I am offended, the words behind them are meaningless to me, intent is the reality that causes suffering....

If I say bugger or bullocks to you Americans you will just laugh at me, but I just cussed in Kiwi...

Just words, meaningless in content, yet they can be wielded to hurt others by intent, or culture....

I am more saddened by wolves in sheeps clothing, Tenzin

Tenzin, I'm with you on this one. Words are not the things they may or may not represent. Social context and not offending or hurting others should be one's guide.

It's interesting Trailwind, in your other thread about Tobacco Hawk just talked about intention, just as I referred to, yet his was pertaining to spiritual offerings. Interesting to me that he started this thread and I just finished reading his post and he started this thread. Intention is very important to me, words are simply sounds, it is how they are understood, it is how they are said that either hurt or heal...

Darn it, Tenzin

I am not sure if I follow what your saying Tenzin??

I believe that words are more than sounds~they are the tool most often used to communicate. The end result of a complex process we call "thinking"... In addition I think that the sound of a word has effect on the listener AND how the word is delivered (spoken) does as well. Tone, rythym etc influence how a person hears what is being said. Sound is vibration~vibration effects everything doesn't it??

In the thread about tobacco I do not think I made reference to spiritual offerings. I see no distinction...

Indeed, words ARE tools. Some of us have amassed a considerable variety of tools. And a very, very many in this world have not, due to circumstance or opportunity. Thus, they use with more frequency the words that they do have which are usually the most common ones, the ones that are the easiest to aquire and which cost the least. When listening to anyone, one must listen beyond the words.

Sorry Hawk, my mistake. I meant offerings, which can be done in spiritual settings, as such as tobbaco.

I was talking about intention, not the (swear) word itself. It's like the (intention) of tobacco, which could be viewed as a negative thing, but if done (used) with the right intention it has a different effect, a different meaning.

The actual spelling, sound and make up of a word has no meaning whatsoever, we make that all up culturally, we all make our own decisions as to whether a word is good or bad, there is no meaning whatsoever in the arrangment of letters, they are just words. But swear words can be used to hurt, same way using the word "fat" (not a swear word) could, if done with improper intention.

My point was the similiarities of proper, opr improper intention in different situations, either used in ceremony ie: tobacco or a a simple word that has gained a reputation in some countries and some cultures as negative or hurtful. For me, I look for the intention behind words, words do not have to be a legal swear word to hurt someone....

Tobbaco, swear words, both just things in this world, yet they both have a strong effect on those who either misuse them or do not understand that they can have no effect on you at all if you step outside your perceptions of right and wrong. I have seen tobbaco used in some very powerful spiritual gatherings by Natives, it was beautiful and maybe that is why I used the term spiritual for I see every aspect of my life as spiritual....

I hoped that helped you understand...

Pure intentions are a beautiful thing, Tenzin

D***, the swearing thread is still going!!!

I largely don't use swear words. As many have said, the effect of language and communication can be powerful, and swear words often create an impact that is crude, unpleasant, and harsh to the receiver. In most cases, I would never wish to intentionally or unintentionally convey that to anyone.

That being said, I have been known to curse to myself, probably because I feel that the crude, unpleasant, or harsh moment justifies a reflection in language, in a self-therapeutic way.

I have on rare occasion used curse words for emphasis and punctuation, specifically to make a point, and only in forgiving company.

I often find my response to gratuitous, "conversational" cursing is feeling simultaneously startled, put-off, and amused, when I know there is no harmful intent in the speaker.

Hawk, I wonder if your friend has made any changes in his communication style in the past two months. I sense he has a kind heart, and his cursing a consequence of the conversational style of his previous environment, rather than having negative intentions. I wonder if he has become more sensitive to the power of his words, and the unintended effects one's actions may have on others, given the company he now keeps.

Jefferson

Jefferson he actually has made noticable changes in his choice of language~much more selective/discerning. As you point out his language is both environmentally/culturally borne as well as a shield. He uses it somewhat conciously knowing the impact it has. It's been great to watch his choices when in our home or with my family. With a little encouragement this is where the change is most noticable.

Hawk -- So happy to hear that the shield is being lowered as he learns to TRUST and be comfortable with friendship and with himself. It will be interesting to see the difference next year. I loved his heart and his passion...with proper direction and encouragement, he could do something amazing.

Peace and Hugs,
Sharon