Hi All you Flute Lovers:

I have small and thin hands. When I buy men´s gloves I but them in small; however when there's extra small, it more often than not fits me too. My assumption was that a NAF in mid G minor is a great flute for every adult no matter what size their hand is. Am I right? What´s if I wanted to buy an E minor flute? Would it be too much of a stretch for my fingers?

And then there´s those base and sub-base flutes. I love their sound. But I don´t know how low I can go on those. I was particularly interested in Geoffry´s low flutes; what with the way they are designed you´re able to go lower than you thought. At least that´s how I understand. I´d also would like to see how low I can go on an RV flute......interesting way the holes are placed to make it easier for fingers to reach.... But I guess the best way would be to get to the Yosemite Fest and try them out in person. But I´m not sure I´ll be able to make it. In the meantime, I would really appreciate anybody´s help.

Ga Nthehu (Ga Un-teh-hu),
We All Will Gather,
Carlos

[]^

Whoops. Tried to edit my topic starter.

Hello Carlos,

I too have the same problem as you - I have a fairly good reach, but my fingers are very small and skinny so I have to be very careful when buying flutes.

As a general rule you should be fine with a mid range key such as G, but notice I say it's a general rule - different makers will produce different flutes. While you may be okay with a flute from one maker, you may not be with the same key flute from a different maker.

I learnt that the expensive way...I have a low D from Douglas Thunderhorse which I find very easy and comfortable to play since he makes flutes with small fingering holes, however when I bought low E flute from Singing Tree flutes, even though it's a key above low D, I found it impossible to play because the fingering holes are fairly large.

If you can go and try the flutes out in person then that's absolutely the best way to go. Unfortunately I don't have that option so I have to email the maker and check what the spread and diameter of the finger holes are. A trick I've heard is that you can mark the measurements they give you on a broom handle and hold it to see if it's comfortable for you.

Hope that helps somewhat, if I think of anything else I'll post again!
Laura

Carlos,

It all depends on the flute maker. I have small hands, short fingers, and a short reach.

Contact the maker of the flute you want. Some will be able to adapt a flute to you. Geoffrey has shortened the length of the mouthpiece and placed the holes in a better position for me so that I can play a D (which I love). I haven't had any trouble with the size of the finger holes.

He sent measurements to me and I bought a cheap roll of wrapping paper. Used the tube (much lighter and easier to try than a broom stick. Also more of the size of the flute barrel). I might eventually try a sub bass side blown flute.

Some makers won't be able (or just won't try) to make those adjustments, but a lot will.

One consideration is, if they make a flute adjusted for you, check and see if you can still return it if you don't want it. I just thought of that while I was typing this. I never thought to ask Geoffrey that but I think he probably mentioned it.

DUH! Like I would return an Earth Tone flute! PALEEASE!

Hope this helps!

Carlos,

Of course the best thing would be to test a sub bass flute on a flute festival...

if that's not possible take your biggest flute - place your fingers over the holes -
than go beyond the holes and stretch your fingers as far apart as possible -
do this a few times for a few minutes. Than leave the flute alone for 10 minutes and relax.
Go back and to the same thing again - leave the flute for 10 minutes and relax.
go back to the flute and stretch the fingers as far as you still feel comfortable
and measure the distance. Also hold the flute away from you and assess the
additional distance so you get an idea of your comfortable arm reach.
Talk about your findings with the flute maker and he (or she) will know what to do.

Also, the holes of my Geoffrey Ellis sub bass E flute are less wide apart than the
holes of my Guillermo Martinez mid D flute ! Arm reach is also no problem
with the Geoffrey Ellis flute as it is side blown. Without knowing the size of your
fingers, I am quite positive that Geoffrey could make a sub bass G flute that
you can easily finger... (maybe with a little bit of training) (the same is true
for other good makers of the woodlands style flutes like Colyn Petersen or Russ Venable)

I encourage you to train your fingers (by playing a big flute that is a bit
difficult to finger for you in the beginning). I had quite a few friends testing
my flutes. Some friends with way bigger hands than I have could not play my
lowest flutes, while some with even smaller hands were able to finger even
my lowest flute. Also, I have a Bansuri Sub Bass G that I could not play with all holes
covered for 2 months! (I had to cover a hole with cork). I was quite certain that
I would never be able to finger it - the gap was just too big - but after
trying again and again - I managed to cover the holes one day -
and after some more days it even felt comfortable.

Go for it ! Measure your reach - talk to your flute maker - and go SUB BASS

All good answers, Carlos. There are significant differences in flutes from one maker to another, so the best advice is to know what you can comfortably reach, and then be sure the maker's flute is within those specs, or that they make a flute that will be within those specs.

The simple method, is to get a piece of pvc pipe, about 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Then place the end at your mouth, and see how far you can comfortably reach, without strain. Mark that hand placement. Then spread your fingers to their most comfortable spread, without strain, and mark that distance. Those will become your measurements for "maximum" stretch fit. Any flute you buy, should fall into those measurements.

For larger flutes, side blown increases your playing capacity. Place your pvc tube in a side blown position, and rotate your fingers into an articulated position, again that doesn't create undue strain. Then see where the mouth will comfortably fit against the side of the pipe, and mark that position. That is where the mouthpiece will have to go, for you to play comfortably. The maker then needs to make a mouthpiece that will fit that dimension, for you. (Sideblown can be extended quite some distance.)

You will likely be surprised at what you can play, if the flute is properly designed. I am not a big person, being just 5' 10", and about 185 lbs. Yet I play contrabass E and above flutes. I also can play embouchure flutes of some size, up to 34" bansuri side blown is the largest, of those. I also play a 2.4 shakuhachi, with no strain, although I use different fingers than usual, and use my pinky a lot more.

Just communicate well with your maker, and be sure he knows how the flute needs to fit you. If he can't make it that way, go to another maker, who can.

Hi Carlos,

As Robin mentioned, the key of a flute is not necessarily a good gauge of the finger reach and stretch. I have a high C flute from JP Gomez that has a longer reach of the holes than my mid G from Brent Haines. Colyn Petersen is working on a low A for me right now with a shortened slow air chamber (thanks to the suggestion by Dan) and articulated (curved) fingering. Otherwise, I wouldn't be able to normally play a flute of that size.

Barry Higgins of White Crow Flutes makes "Stubbies". From his website: "These designs are the result of requests for lower flutes for those with shorter arms or smaller hands. As a result
I now offer flutes that have a bore larger than the optimal sizes which makes them shorter in bore length. I also shorten the rear air chamber to the minimal required size which shorten required arm reach. The holes are drill for reach ability, decreasing the finger stretch." I don't own one of these flutes, so I can't give a personal opinion of them. I know there are others on this board that like White Crow flutes.

Dave

Hey Carlos,

Like everyone said, it depends upon the maker, the particular flute, the bore, the size of the holes, your hands and as Robin said, your technique. My fingers are very long, but are not meaty at the tips and are slender so I have to adjust for that. Some people compensate for length of fingers by width of the hand.

Also there are some adjustments that are made unconsciously until you develop your reach on a flute that is a challenge. One is not to flap out your elbows but to hold them in closer to you, this can adjust the angle and finger spread.

I played Russ Venable's prototype sub D and couldn't reach some of it (but what I COULD reach, oh, man!), but that was the prototype about 2 years or so ago and he was working on the aspect ratio and I'm sure he's tightened it up considerably and is still going. I think he got a "wild hair" on a weekend and had to buy the wood for the prototype from Home Depot. That was of great amusement to us all, a Home Depot flute.

I have an F# sideblown redwood sub bass from Geoffrey Ellis. He had a G that was 1/2 step higher that was harder to play because of the size of the holes. Sooooooo I think I'm just adding to the chorus of, well it depends. You see, I could play his endblown G drone, and only a few women could play that one (owned by a flute circle friend).

That being said, the wider bore flutes can generally get the holes closer together, which is why many of us have had good luck with reach on the lower flutes from Colyn Petersen, Geoffrey Ellis. Ed Hrebec and Russ Venable.

I have a friend who wasn't able to play any flute in a certain key until she picked up one of Geoffrey's --- SOLD!

JP Gomez's concert series also has a wider bore than the Sedona, which is something to consider as well.

peace and harmony,

Francesca

Wow! A lot of factors to consider. Not just hand size but different NAF from different makers. Thanks to you all for your help and input..... Just was also going to say:

Hi Francesca. So your saying that the JP Gomez concert series are easier to reach? Interesting....

Again Thanks A lot Everybody. And in case I can go to the Yosemite Fest, I hope to see many of you there.

Ga Nthehu (Gah Un-teh-hu),
We Will Gather,
Carlos

JP Gomez concert series (I have two) may be easier to reach than his Sedonas (I have none to compare), but they are a bit more of a stretch than any of my woodland-style flutes (Geoffrey Ellis, Colyn Petersen).

Carlos, J.P.'s flutes are pretty similar in reach, until you get into D# or D. Then the bore size increases enough to affect the finger reach. Otherwise, the fingering is pretty similar on the Sedona, Courting, and Special Concert series, although the Special Concert series is a little nicer flute overall, and it may have a tad easier reach for fingering, but nothing significant.

You can get a greater finger spread on flutes in the higher range, as J.P. often uses a much longer sac on such flutes, to allow for easier fingering, without crowding the holes.

The same holds true for some other makers, that use longer sacs in the high range.

Typically, though, the larger the bore size, the easier the fingering, in mid range. There is, as I understand it, an optimal bore size to key ratio, however, so makers tend to stay within a narrow range of bore size for a particular key.

Rick and all,

I just realized what Rick meant by "sac." Took me a minute. Slow Air Chamber and yes, you've added yet another factor -- that the size of the slow air chamber can make the flute longer (i.e. the holes farther away from your face) which could also affect hand positioning as it would be further down. So still, a lot has to do with the flute construction.

I will have to compare my JP Sedona G to my JP Concert F# and check out where the holes are. I have a Courting model but that is mid-high B flat (A#), a real sweet flute in old growth redwood. But some of you folks definitely have me beat in the flute ownership department, although I'm close to (or at) 30 flutes, mostly NAFs.

I do know that one of my first flutes was a High Spirits F# that I no longer play, and the finger reach is fine for me now, but at the time I was surprised to get an E from another maker that was an easier reach. I was told by High Spirits that was because the bore was wider on my E, and that was one of my first "aha" moments on this whole issue.

You added yet another factor to the mix -- that the way the hole spacing is done can also assist in ease of fingering.

I've heard it said by several sources that it's good to start with an A or G flute, or something mid-range. Generally speaking, it seems to me that the reach is easier, and the breath control skills are easier to establish in that range. I know that in my flute circle, and in Mary Youngblood's workshops (and other workshops as well), folks are encouraged to come with an "A" flute if they have one. So many folks have As and Gs in Loping Wolf that it makes it easier to play together.

It takes more air and technique to play the lower flutes, and with the high high flutes, seems like it's a compression/pressure thing. I used to play oboe years ago, and part of the idea was to build up pressure -- it's just a small double reed and only a certain amount of air was supposed to be going through it. I used to exhale before inhaling again.

But then once you have a few mids -- it's like, "What can I try next???!!!" The flute adventure is never ending ...

peace and harmony,

Francesca

Hello Carlos. I'm with you man. I have small, stubby fingers and it is a challenge sometimes. It has probably been mentioned but I have two flutes, identical in key, but the finger hole spacing as well as the size is significantly different. So, as folks have mentioned, the flute maker is the key. I do remember someone posting a flute that has no SAC, so the holes are much closer to you. Check out this post and additional comments: Go to the General Posts and look for "Interesting Naf / Low Whistle Hybrid..." posted by Jason I think.

Cheers,
David "stubby fingers too"

Not sure if this is the same maker mentioned (I know I picked the link up from somewhere on here!) but this guy makes low flutes with "EZ-Reach"...could be an option for you if you want to get into the really low flutes Carlos

http://www.deruby.com/Home_Page.html

*************************************************
Greetings to Carlos, and to flute friends with fingers of every size!

I gifted a very petite F# that had much smaller than normal finger holes to a friend of mine when she was recuperating from a stroke. A flute maker pal of mine had sent that particular flute to me and told me to find someone who was in need a flute! Eureka! It was my wish to help assist her with some of her coordination exercises and to bring some musical relaxation into her life! She was quite excited about the flute, but she simply could not seem to keep the holes covered because of her small fingers and it actually caused her more frustration than relaxation! Oh My! Getting her to admit what she considered her short comings, was not easy! To top that off, the squeaking noise from the holes not being properly covered would send her cat into a total conniption fit worthy of being video taped! Her cat at least gave her a tremendous amount of laughter therapy!
Many weeks ago we took a closer look at her fingers when she was attempting to play a song she had been working on to play at our flute circle and we discovered that not only were her fingers small, but that it was actually her arthritis that was keeping her from being able to stretch out her fingers to reach the holes. She is truly unable to stretch her finger more than a finger distance width! Eureka #2 !
I then gave her my nifty little Cedar High E that was made by Frank Taylor, of Standing Eagle Flutes and she said that it fit her hands perfectly. She learned her very first song on that little flute, but she asked us if we could please try find her a flute that was not so high that may work for her needs!

It gets even better!!! A dear friend of mine ("Blue") from Nevada decided to "Gift" one of his flutes to The Tallavana Flute Circle in hopes that someone could really use it! How wonderful was that! A totally terrific little Cedar C# that was made by Tim Blueflint, of Shades of Rez, arrived just in time for our flute circle meeting yesterday and my pal shrieked with joy saying that his flute must have been made just for her!
A few of us had brought all of our small flutes to the gathering for her to try out, but the perfect flute for her hands was the grand gift that will keep on giving for many years to come! Eureka #3 !!!

Yes, she has fully recovered from her stroke and she is now really determined to become a flute player! And yes, the original gifted F# flute will be in our flute library for the next person in need!

The measurement / finger placement ideas that were submitted in the previous posts will really be helpful for many folks and we may eventually be able to find our pal a mid range flute for her special hands! Thanks!

*There are indeed many comforting things that happen in our flute world, and the Tallavana Flute Circle would like to extend a sincere thank you to "Blue" aka Mark Palsgrove, Tim Blueflint, and all the folks at the Desert Cloud Flute Circle for this very special "Kindness Flute" !*

Peace, Marsha

Hey Carlos,I have small hand's as well and have a low A sideblown from Earth Tone flutes that works just fine.Geoffrey can articulate the holes so it easyer to play,You should check in to it.Good luck.

What a nice story! Thanks for sharing! And thanks to folks like Tim who have a heart not only for the NAF, but for people as well.

Thanks Tootie! Tim Blueflint indeed made that terrific little C# flute, but it was our mutual friend Mark, who goes by the nickname "Blue" who sent the flute from Nevada to Florida for our flute pal with small curving fingers. I did not mean to confuse "Blue" with Blueflint, but I do know that both of these gentlemen are quite pleased with the very happy results!
I agree with you Tootie, and I consider myself very fortunate to know such kind and giving folks.

Peace, Marsha

G, G#

Good morning Cavefish!

I also have small hands with a limited reach. A couple of years ago, I went to the Zion Flute Festival with the intent to purchase a base flute, but couldn't find one that I could reach comfortably. When I couldn't find one, I set about in my shop to design as many flutes in as many keys as possible to fit people with small to medium size hands. As a result, I have made flutes down to a low B that has less than an 1 1/2" reach (center-to-center) on each hole.

If you are in the area, September 26 thru the 28 is the Yosemite Flute Fest. Since there will be quite a few flute makers there (myself included), it would be a good time to check them out! For information on the Festival and vendors go to theYosemite Flute Festival. Hope to see you there!