Greetings again,

I know I'm asking a highly subjective question here, but I'm hoping a few of the more experienced players would comment on the differences in tonal quality from one flute to another.

Let me disclaim myself here - I know listening is in the ear of the beholder, but let me give an example:

I can hear the difference in tonal quality (and can appreciate the price difference because of it) in a $500 Kentucky brand mandolin and a $8,000 Gibson.

So my question is this...if I buy one of Geoffrey Ellis' $250 model flutes, am I likely to hear a big difference compared to my Butch Hall Little Bird? (aside from the key difference, of course) - or am I going to have to spend a lot more money to get an even better sounding flute?

If this subject has been covered elsewhere, I'd appreciate some direction. :-)

Safe travels,
Bob the newbie Jones

Quite a big difference between the two makers. I guess the more obvious is that Geoffrey tends to use a slightly larger bore than Butch (I think), and that one thing will change the sound quality somewhat.

Geoffrey makes a woodlands style flute, vs. Butch making mostly plains style flutes (although the sound mechanism may actually be the same, as I recall.)

Naturally, the key is a factor, as a little bird is a high C as I recall. I am not sure that Butch's design is quite as good in that small a flute, as in his mid range keys. The highest I have from him is the high B. I had a high C, but it didn't please me, so it went to a new home.

I do not have any of Geoffrey's flutes in upper mid range, as I already had plenty of flutes in that range, when I started buying from him, so I have no direct comparison, there.

I guess it really depends on whether you plan to purchase the same key, or what key you do plan to purchase. Some makers are better at high flutes, some are better at low flutes, and only a very few really make a full cross section of keys.

Thanks for your input, Rick. My Butch Hall Little Bird blows a B on my tuner (the one I use to tune my guitars and mandolins) - it is a high B, too. I like the way it sounds, although it takes more effort to get the clean notes than my Johah Thomas Am. I didn't realize that the Little Bird is a plains style flute, so that's something for me to keep in mind as I proceed.

I am actually looking to get another flute that has a lower voice. I've listened to the sound files on Geoffrey's site and am thinking about low D, or possibly even a mid-range F#.

As with guitars and mandolins, I know the true test is playing the actual instrument. I live in Michigan and there aren't a lot of flute festivals or flute circles available. I'm relying on the internet sites and this forum to help me decide.

As I was contemplating my original post regarding upgrading, I stopped to wonder why I feel I want another flute. (and yes, I own two mandolins, and three guitars, so I'm completely aware of "gear acquisition syndrome ;0) I guess the main reason is I'd like to be able to make the different key sounds I own, firstly. Secondly, I am drawn to the lower voice I've heard on several recordings. Thirdly, I suppose deep down I'm thinking about the concept that learning always seems easier on better equipment. After checking out your response that you referred me to in the "upgrading" post I see you give both Butch Hall and Jonah Thomas high marks, so logically I'm wondering "how much better sounding would a more expensive flute sound?"

Also, I have good friend who I've commissioned to make me a nice flute stand, and it's going to have room for three flutes....;-)

Thanks again, Rick. I've read many of your posts and they're always spot on! :-)

Bob

My two cents worth ...

In my humble opinion, there is a huge difference in a Butch Hall flute and a Geoffrey Ellis flute. I know a lot of people like Butch's flutes, but the one I got was not impressive. I gifted it to someone.

My flutes from Geoffrey, however, have never been gifted! I keep all those babies I can get! There is a much richer tone to them (again, my opinion) and they play with a fuller sound. They are practically effortless to play and you can play softly or loudly and still get the note in tune.

I also think they look better (even without doing anything fancy). Whatever key I've gotten from Geoffrey has always been good - I have several.

I think you should try one. If you don't like it, you can return it.

Yeah right~ you mean return it to you don't you Jan...

Bob, its a pretty big stretch from a high B down to a D. If you want something a bit lower, you might consider an E. Thats also a great key to accompany Guitar, mandolin, ect.

Let us know what you decide and of course, we love to see picture /
Ed

Bob, Geoffrey is one of my recommended makers for low flutes. Make that a top notch one for low drones. That is an area where fewer makers shine, but Geoffrey makes great flutes in the lower range.

You might consider a D# (Eb), a D or a low C. I kinda think as a guitarist, you just might like the D# (Eb) a lot. When you get below low C, you are in the true low range, and below low A, you enter the contrabass range.

I just got a low C from Kuz that I really like a lot, myself, and I have a low C duet drone by Geoffrey, that is a fabulous flute. I also have a low C# drone from Russ Venable that really talks to me, and a low C from Russ Wolf that I love to play new age style on.

While I think Butch makes a fine low D, I have never found a low C of his that talked to me.

Below the mid range, I have a low B from Geoffrey, a low A from Leonard Lone Crow McGann, and a low B art drone from Geoffrey. Still haven't gotten the low Bb. I have a contrabass in low F#, and E, both from Pat Haran, who is the other really good low flute maker, I like. (Pat's are extremely easy to reach for their size.)

So......there are plenty of good sources.....you just need to decide what you are looking for, in key, and what price range fits with your need, and shop accordingly.

In D#, I have J.P. Gomez, Jack Thomas (art flute), and Butch Hall, at the moment. They are all good flutes, but they are all different, as well.

Still, you need to try to hear some flutes play, even if you ask the makers to play them over the phone. (Land line is best.) While you might not play the same way, it does at least give you an idea of tone.

I really do say, there are more good flute makers out there, than we can really know about, or can afford to buy from. Take your time in searching for the right flute, and try to make as good a choice as possible. You may need to live with that choice, at least for a time.

Everything I have learned about flutes, I learned because I had limited dollars, and lots of wants. That meant I had to learn all I could, to seek out the best, at the best values. While some people wouldn't necessarily make the same choices, that's because flutes are somewhat individual, and we don't all look for the same thing in a flute. That is good, as it keeps flutes from getting to be just a "product". They still all have their own character, individuality, and unique suitability, to each individual player. So, even though we can offer some guidance, in who to look at, you must still decide for yourself, in the end, who has what speaks to you.

I don't have any flutes by Geoffrey, but I do have a Butch Hall Little Bird, and yes, it's a high B. I think it's an OK flute, but it doesn't really do much for me. I also have a Butch Hall concert G (newer one with standard NA fingering). I like it a little more, but still wouldn't call it a great flute.

I like my High Spirits Golden Eagle (F#) better than both of my Butch Hall flutes. Given the comments of some more experienced players here in other threads, I'd guess that a flute from Geoffrey (or Colyn Petersen, Ed Hrebec, or JP Gomez for that matter) would sound better than the Golden Eagle even.

One interesting thing about the Little Bird that surprised me is that the bore is the same diameter as the G I have. I would think that it should be smaller.

One thing I wonder here is about the one-piece vs. two-piece construction. Both Butch Hall and High Spirits make flutes from a single bored flute blank. I believe that Geoffrey (and the others I mentioned above) makes flutes using two halves glued together.

I used to think that one-piece was better. There's no visible seam and there's no glue joint that can fail. These seem to be obvious advantages.

However, something that Miguel Medina said on the C&F NAF forum made me think. Seems obvious when you think about it though. When you use the two-piece construction, you really get full access to the sound mechanism from the inside and out. Of course, this is the heart of the flute. This has gotten me thinking that maybe that advantage of the two-piece outweighs the advantages of the one-piece.

Jason

I have a mid F# and E from Geoffrey that are top notch, and yes they sound better--way better in my opinion--than any less expensive flute I've heard so far and many equally expensive flutes. The same goes for my flutes from Colyn Petersen, JP Gomez, and Ed Hrebec. You can pay a hundred dollars less, but you'll definitely hear the difference. Sound may be subject to taste, but it's also subject to experience. In other words, you can be quite satisfied with a $150 flute--until you play a $250 flute. These are gross generalizations, of course, and I'm sure there are many exceptions. And there is a law of diminishing returns involved here. I don't see that spending $500 on a similar style flute gains you any advantage in sound quality.

I'd go with an F or F# or a G.

Butch makes nice flutes. I have two. However, they rarely get played and I play Geoffrey's flutes all the time. I dare say you'll not be disappointed.

Darn! You're on to me, Hawk!

Hey freckledsophie! Been missing you! Glad you're back!

As an owner of more than a few Butch Hall flutes, I feel they have evolved greatly over the years and are hard to pin down regarding how they compare with other flute makers. When you try to compare one of his flutes to another maker, my question is which time period are you referring to? Are you looking at tuning, responsiveness, or aesthetics? Are we looking at his beginner line which focuses on those who are just beginning their flute journey or his concert flutes? I ask because one of the best tuned and beautiful flutes I own is a Butch Hall F# bird head flute. It had beads inlayed on the side near the eyes and wood burned and painted lightning bolts coming out of rain clouds near the back of the loons head.

Below is a brief account of my journey with the Halls and how they have modified their flutes over the years. It does not really address the question being asked but I thought someone might enjoy the history lesson.

His early flutes were...bad. There is no other way to put it. Those made from 92 to 94 were pretty poor. In 1995, he had a break through and his flutes got much better. From 1995 till 2007 he was splitting his flutes and using the watershed tuning method. I believe it was first used by Steven O'Donald who died tragically in a plan crash in the early 90s. Butch settled on this tuning in order to bring all the notes in tune on the flute including 3 extended octave notes. I have been told that flute making is all about compromises and his tuning method allowed all the notes in the chromatic scale to be played in tune (with out half holing or fudging). I do not believe the same can be said for the standard tuning most makers use and which he has moved to. With this advantage in accurate tuning one is burdened with the added complexity of the alternative fingering. This required more work and due to demand for the standard tuning, he has largely discontinued it.

In 2007 he started playing with boring flutes. It took quite a bit of convincing him to try this and Dr. Paine was instrumental in getting Butch to consider this method of construction. It was not for many months that he finally decided that he could make a bored flute as good as a split one. He also realized that exotic woods which were tended to separate or crack could be bored and he could stream line production time by eliminating the gluing process. He invested heavily to build a machine that was very accurate in boring and smooth in operation. At this point, I believe he has the most sophisticated flute boring system in the country. I also know many other makers including those considered "high end" are emulating his process or at the very least are exploring their ability to bore. Boring setups can be very expensive depending on how well they are made and the degree of precision and automation. Boring is cost prohibitive for many smaller makers and thus it does not make sense for them to invest in the cost to retool. Many times (not all the time) those makers who complain about boring or insist on splitting their flutes do so because they simply can't afford to do it.

I personally think that Butch's mid flutes play very well and are ideal for a recording environment. I believe they have been used on more recordings than any other flute maker. I put together a poster for him of all the albums his flutes had been played on and I had to leave many off the poster because even at 2 inches squares on a large size poster board, I ran out of room. Some of the artists that have recorded with his flutes include R.C. Nakai, Mark Holland, Peter Phippen, Jeff Ball, Robert Tree Cody, Kevin Locke, Bill Miller, Burning Sky, Cornell Kinderknecht and Hovia Edwards. The list is much longer, but these are a few I can remember.

I realize they may not be as fancy as other makers, and his starter flutes such as the Little Horse, Little Bird and La Mita Cola are more airy and have more back pressure than I care for, but his concert flutes rank up there with a decently long list of other great flute makers.

As for making a mass produced flute, he blemishes out (makes a second) more flutes than most makers produce in a year. If the flute has a knot or he does not like the grain or it is out of tune, he will not sell it as a Butch Hall first tier flute. He will often donate those flutes with cosmetic flaws to Indian Schools or other needy organizations. I am not wishing to rant about Butch's flutes, but his level of professionalism is second to none in the flute making world. His level of automation is amazing and thus we are lucky to be able to purchase very well manufactured musical instruments for a great prices.

As a final note, I believe there is a relationship between cost and benefit but I believe in the law of diminishing returns (as Paul stated more clearly in the previous post). As a flute player, I am mainly concerned about a flute's sound. As Rick can attest, I love flashy beautiful flutes, but my primary concern is about the flute sound and tuning. I can live with a simple flute if it sounds good.

With that, I have written a weeks worth of postings for me so I will rest and recover from my bronchitis.

Mark

Thanks to everyone for all the excellent information, suggestions and comparisons. This is exactly the type of info I was hoping to glean...I appreciate all of your comments.

I'll be sure to post when I get my new flute! :-)

Safe travels,
Bob

Mark, I recall that one of the prettiest flutes by Butch, I have heard, was an F#. It was exquisite, but it was in the hands of a much better player, than I am.

Perhaps I will mention that a shakuhachi master I know, is recording soon, classic shakuhachi music, on NAF, and most of those flutes will be Butch Hall concert tunings, (which I personally have never learned to play, because of my own inadequacies), and to give you some indication of how that will sound, he played one piece on a Butch Hall Little Horse (A) .....not to be confused with the new seller on ebay.....and that was one of the prettiest pieces I have ever heard played on an NAF, by anyone!

His comment to me was.....if you ever learn to play them, you will like them (the concert tuning), as they play very well. I do not disagree with that statement, at all. I have seen too many top notch players, get things out of Butch's flutes, I cannot get, but that is simply because I have had to stay with Butch's standard tunings, which are good flutes, but his concert tunings are his best, for those who can handle the alternative tuning.