Original post has been deleted.

Agreed. This is especially evident when one starts playing above the octave. But even between the fundamental and the octave, the inbetween notes will vary in tune and tonal quality depending upon many variables. The wood, temperature, humidity, hole size, geometry and placement, internal finish, etc., etc..... A top notch flute maker can adjust for many of these things and make flutes that seem perfect, but in fact none ever are. That is one reason why I prefer to play a flute before I commit to taking it home. As one becomes more familiar with the NAF, one begins to recognize the subtle differences between flutes and often these differences can be utilized to enhance a particular song or technique.

Ed,

I think you've raised an important point, and I agree with you (even though it is the Agree to Disagree forum, hopefully someone will come along and disagree to sort of spice things up a bit ).

The Native American style flute is basically a whistle. A players embrouchure does not create the note, but an external whistle mechanism does. Unlike instruments like recorders that have a tapered bore, N.A. flute has a cylindrical bore. Basically, no matter how you slice it, a cylindrically bored wooden whistle has limits. The contemporary N.A. flute is basically a modernized folk instrument.

The very limits that it's design imposes on it are the same features that give it a unique and beautiful sound. You can manipulate the "limits" of the instrument to give it certain performance characteristics, but always within certain bounds that are determined by the laws of physics.

Ironically, many players who get involved with the instrument want to bring it into contemporary music--they want to play with other musicians and they need their flutes to be accurately tuned to contemporary definitions (where the note A equals 440 Hz). Most of the reputable contemporary makers offer such flutes, accurately tuning the primary scale.

The problem comes when players start getting unrealistic ideas about what this instrument should be able to do (usually defined by their personal needs). As an example:

About 5 years ago, I got a call from a player who wanted a N.A. flute. He described the flute he wanted me to make, and I'm going to paraphrase his description here:

"I want it to have a full, rich warm tone--really sweet. I want it to be really, really stable on the fundamental note so that I can really wail on it. I have a bunch of flutes that jump the octave if I blow really hard. I need it to have a two octave range and I want the cross-fingered notes to be totally accurate..."

Now, most professional flute makers would look at that and laugh themselves silly! A classic "have your cake and eat it too" scenario. He was essentially asking me to change the laws of the physical universe and make him the Holy Grail of flutes!

I had to break it to him. First, any flute that can play two full octaves accurately is NOT going to be stable on the fundamental. It will be a very, very sensitive instrument and it will likely have a very thin sounding voice. On the flip side, a flute that is very stable and has a rich, warm, sweet voice is NEVER going to play two octaves. Heck, it will probably not play 1.5 octaves.

He finally talked to enough other flute makers who said the same thing that he ended up modifying his expectations. However, I routinely get people asking me if my flutes will play the minor third in the second octave. They say that they expect this from all of their flutes because they have one that does it, and they like that.

Well, Ed is right. No wooden flute of this type is going to play those "in between" notes with perfect accuracy. If it is a minor pentatonic tuning and the main scale notes are dead on, in terms of tuning, then the in between notes will probably be close enough. You modulate your breath to bring them up or down.

At the end of the day you have to remember: It's an open-hole tuned, wooden whistle. It is not a recorder or a silver flute that has been precisely machined and keyed to perfection. It's a wooden tube of widely varying density, subject to all manner of climate variations. They sound amazing, and they have a unique character that no other woodwind can emulate. I think we should praise them for their uniqueness and remember their limitations. That is what makes them fun and artistic.

It's like Haiku poetry. You work within the limited framework, and by doing so you are forced to be creative.

So it sounds like you're saying no two flutes are alike -they're like snowflakes and that's one of the reasons they are so special. Each should be valued for what it is and does and we need to play around and find all the nuances of each particular flute.

Then instead of trying to make it what we what, we should accept it as it is and enjoy that. Kind of like trying to make a kid be a doctor (or whatever) when he really wants to be a musician (or whatever)?

While I agree with Ed in principal, I am an ordinary enough player to like my flutes to play as consistently as possible. Thus, I can get picky about flutes I buy.

That said, I try to learn the variables from flute to flute, which will occur from even a single maker, and avoid pentatonic tunings which are alternative by design, as that complicates my playing more than I am prepared to deal with, at present.

Diatonics, and unusual tunings, which are simply totally different, I am learning to deal with, now.

In time, I will probably be able to cope with the alternative by design makers.

Agree with that, in principle. but it doesn't stop me from trying to get as close as possible.

That's too serious for me, Ed.

I just know what I like, and I try to find that in each flute I buy. That isn't to say that there aren't variances in the flutes, just that I have things I look for, and try to find those things, when I try flutes. That's just what works for me, and it will be different for other people.

Hi Ed,

I think I get what your saying. It's about the "popular" fingering for mode 1 & 4 flutes vs. the fingering used by Ken Light (a la Nakai TAB) for example where the top note is fingered differently. The choice depends on what the maker is going for - simple fingering for the main notes, easier cross fingering for the in-between notes or the look of evenly-spaced holes for instance. Tuning the basic straight notes in the first register can be very consistent, but the cross fingerings can be all over the place for many reasons as you mentioned. And tuning the second register is largely ignored by the majority of makers, mostly I think because there are many variable affecting the pitch and it can lead to frustration.

I have spent a lot of energy learning how to get that minor third in the second octave in tune, and I have found some interesting things about the acoustics involved. Since the N.A. flute is getting close to the edge of the range up there, the physics tends to go nonlinear and the tuning is touchy - and highly dependent on what was done to get the notes in the first register. There are things that you can do to help it out, one of which is to mess with the shape of the bore. The wooden flutes tend to be cylindrical, but I don't think they have to be -- after all, cane and bamboo are not perfectly cylindrical.

But I do agree with the basic idea that the fingering of notes can vary, especially for the cross-fingered notes and those in the upper octave. And I also think the fingerings for the basic scale should be consistent within any of the "standard" schemes.

Mike

I stand corrected on the part about the fingering style. But on the rest of it, I guess I don't get something you're saying about how the fingerings are affected if I missed the mark in the rest of my post. Let me rephease it.

When I tune the basic first octave of a mode 1&4 flute, and say it is in F# and I use the "popular" fingering, I can tune the notes to

XXX XXX F#
XXX XXO A
XXX XOO B
XXX OOO C#
XXO XOO D
XOX OOO E
OOX OOO F#

All flutes I tune in that way will always play those same notes with the same fingerings. Sure, blowing pressure variations will bend the pitch, and temperature will shift it. From flute to flute, there will be slight variations in finger hole placement or size because of slight differences elsewhere in the flute, but in the end the same fingerings will produce the same notes. I think this is what you meant when you said "the only true notes that can be in perfect tune all the time or the notes that the holes themselves make."

Now if I fill in the other notes with cross fingerings, then the variations become more difficult to control. For instance, the way I tune my flutes right now, getting the D# I can use either

XXO OOO or XOX XHO (where "H" is half holing)

and from flute to flute the first of the two options may be a bit off pitch, or the second one will require a little more or less half holing to get it right. And if you go into the extended scale into the second octave, the issues are compounded. I thought that was along the lines of the piont you were trying to make. If not, then I missed something...

Mike

This is not on the topic but with regards to tunning, this chart has been floating around on the minor pentatonic modes 1&4 tunning that Mike has referred to. I have attached the pdf files, hopefully it shows. If not it shows the tunning as Mike stated, when tuning hole 4 it shows holes 3,5 and 6 covered

With regards to tunning of the main notes and extended scales I agree with Ed. The limitations the NAF has does not allow the full range as some more advanced taper bored and spot tunned flutes. Even with the more advanced designed flutes ie. Transverse and Shakuhachi etc. theses still must be manipulated by the player to achieve the desired pitch. One must get to know the different subtleties of each flute and become one with it

Jim Davis
www.earthspiritflutes.com

Hmmmmm. I've been tuning that hole with the XXO XOO method for the last ten years and it seems to work just fine

So ... does all this mean that I can't just pick up any NA flute and expect to find the same note on the same place on every flute - there could be variations depending on the maker?

OK, wait a minute. Bear with me, I am a 4 day old flute owner.

I went back and read everything again and what I think I'm hearing is that the basic notes are set. You're going to hit them everytime. BUT - the extended scale notes - well, good luck! Not only are there variations in the flute and environmnet but there are variations in breath control and how you half note a hole or whatever.

You can raise or lower a note with breath control, but you aren't going to 'breath' the note precisely the same every time or finger a half note precisely the same and so the extended scale is affected. I think I'm already experiencing this and I feel better about my playing knowing that some of those flat notes are because of the variables.

Am I even close?

Fooey! Too bad there wasn't a prize for understanding this !

Wait! There is! It's getting to know your flute better! This really is like a relationship. The more time you spend together, the better you get to know it. Then you can make beautiful music together !

Thanks, Ed, for pressing on until the point was clear. Really helps me to feel better about my practice.

Got to go. The flute's calling.

Not that I can relate to. To play well, you must "become one with your flute". You must know your flute, and all of its idiosyncrasies (they all have some), in order to play well, and without any "squeaks, squawks, or other unexpected sounds". That means, also, that not any song will play well on any flute, due to their variances. You must find the flute that plays the song well, and only play the song on that flute......and so on.

Ed,

I never thought to tune to the D# instead of the D. Maybe it's different circles, but I had not seen it suggested until now. I cut my teeth on NAFlutomat and advice from the early folks in the nativeflutewoodworking group that I believe used Lew Paxton Price's approach. But if you look at the Nakai TAB, the D# seems to make since as the key signature uses it, and the use of a D requires an accidental natural sign. Tuning to the D, however, gets you the mode 4 note that needs to be added to a mode-1 tuning to make it a mode 1&4 flute. Either way works, and I might try using the D# on the next flute. Thanks.

I don't think we've met before unless we've crossed paths at Musical Echoes of the Potomac Flute Festival over the past few years. Some folks know me as Mike "Moosewinds" from my Yahoo user name. I use my real name, but I guess the user name is easier to remember... I don't have a business yet, as my day job and other committments eat up too much time, but what flutes I do put out there are usually for charity. I hope we do get the chance to meet eventually.

Mike

Hey Mike,
I am confused. This isn't a pentatonic scale, as there are 6 (7 with octave) notes. Are you saying that you tune the flute in these 7 fingers to ensure that the pentatonic minor scale (mode 1) is properly in tune? In your example, the "D" doesn't belong in the F#m pentatonic scale.

Hi Mike,

The D is in mode-4, which is:

XXX XXX F#
XXX XXO A
XXX XOO B
XXO XOO D
XOX OOO E
OOX OOO F#


Mode 1 is:

XXX XXX F#
XXX XXO A
XXX XOO B
XXX OOO C#
XOX OOO E
OOX OOO F#

Both are minor pentatonic modes (the notes are all also fond in the modern minor scale) with an F# root, each of which is played with 5 notes plus the octave. The extra hole (#4) is added so you can get to the D in mode 4 easily. There are five basic pentatonic modes that divide the octave into five notes as evenly as possible (any 5-note division of the octave is a “pentatonic” scale, but the basic modes we’re talking about are limited to the 12 semitones of the western chromatic scale). In terms of the semitone steps between each note, they are

Mode 1 = 3-2-2-3-2
Mode 2 = _-2-2-3-2-3
Mode 3 = _-_-2-3-2-3-2
Mode 4 = _-_-_-3-2-3-2-2
Mode 5 = _-_-_-_-2-3-2-2-3

Then the pattern repeats. What I am saying is if you make a mode 1&4 flute and you decide that accurately tuning the mode 4 scale is the priority, then you would tune the D. If you decide that the D# is more important for the music that is more likely to be played with that flute (“Simple Gifts” and “Dona Nobis Pacem” come to mind), then you might make the D# a higher priority and tune that instead of the D.

Mike

Wow... I wish I could have read the initial post. Seeing as it's been deleted, I have no idea what the rest of you are agreeing with or arguing against.

First, let me say that I agree with Geoffreys perspective on this issue. Secondly, I only play with either a drum or rattle as accompaniment to the flute, so everything is in tune. How far do we go before it's no longer a NAF?

Barry