I see one of the flutes Jeff put on Ebay says a nice Mode 4 flute. Just Mode 4 and not 1? They are made that way? I'm confused?



Ok let's get another dumb question out of the way. I've been looking at getting a JT flute in A as it sounds like a good price for a good flute. They are all over Ebay but some are listed as Am and some listed as C Major with related A Minor. Same thing? I thought all NAF were minor?


And who the heck is Ward Stroud that someone thinks he can get 1,200 for one of his flutes?

A minor is the relative minor of C major. In other words, if you start on C on a piano and play only the white keys to the next C, you'll get a C major scale. If you start on A and play the same notes (white keys only) to the next A you'll get the A minor scale. So, they're different scales, but they use the same notes.

To make it really simple, yes, it's the same thing.

Now to get technical, the NAF isn't really the full minor scale, but a pentatonic scale. It's based on the same notes, but is missing a few.

I can't address the Mode 4 only question - never heard of that.

I played one of Jonah Thompson's flutes a couple of years ago and wasn't that impressed. It had a pretty weak, airy tone. HOWEVER, that was when he was making them with a round sound hole. He has changed to a rectangular one now, and they play much better. I got a chance to try one out in a local shop last month and it sounded pretty good for a $50 flute.

If you check out Ward Stroud's website, you'll see that his flutes there are generally in the $200 - $400 range, with some lower cost ones as well. Don't know why that ebay flute is so much (I haven't looked for it).

Jason

Apparently he's asking $800 to $1000 for the carved eagle head. Pretty steep.

The mode 4 means it is a major scale tuning, and not a minor scale.

JT flutes were improved a lot with the change to a rectangular sound hole, but that was a couple years back, and while his round sound hole flutes weren't quite as nice, overall, they still played really well for a $50. flute.

The Ward Stroud flute isn't too bad a flute......but I would class it in the $400. range, and not $1200.

Is that the same mode 4 as the one referenced when flute makers say that a flute plays both mode 1 and mode 4 pentatonic scales? I was under the impression that one plays in mode 4 pentatonic when you held down the third from the bottom hole on a six-hole flute, is that right? If so I didn't realize that was a major scale.

I was under the impression modes 1 and 4 were both pentatonic minor scales, since they both begin with all holes covered. The relative major scale (diatonic do-re-me...) begins with the first hole open and progresses upward into the "second" octave--second being relative to the pentatonic scale but not the major scale. Am I mistaken?

Mode 4 on a pentatonic minor flute, is only a partial major scale. A mode 4 tuning would be a major scale tuning.

Mode 4:

http://www.flutetree.com/songbook/scales/Mode4.html

Mode 1:

http://www.flutetree.com/songbook/scales/Mode1.html

Without looking, the "Mode 4" flute might be a 5-hole flute with #3 (from the bottom) of a 6-hole flute missing.

If you have an Am flute, you can play the C major scale if you start at the second note (hole #1 open) and can play the overblown notes in tune.

The earliests flutes were neither major or minor, but tended to be closer to major tuning. Doc Payne made early flutes with a westernized major tuning. After that Michael Graham Allen started producing the westernized minor pentatonic tuning, and that stuck as the most popular. There are certainly more people involved in the re-emergence of the NAF, but these guys get most of the press for being there at the beginning.

The picture here is a graphical view of the pentatonic modes as they relate to the two basic diatonic modes (also known as the modern major "do-re-mi" scale, and the modern natural minor scale). Note that bottom of each one one is not necessarily the same pitch - for instance, if you play a 5-hole flute in mode 1, and then play the same flute starting on the second note (and play the five notes up to the overblown octave of that second note), you played mode 2.

Mike

Too much about music theory, that I don't know, for me to digest all the modal stuff, I'm afraid. I think I will just wander about, and not worry too much about it.

I'm with Rick on this one!

Me too!

The wonderful thing about the NAF is that you don't need extensive knowledge of music theory to make beautiful music. Still, I respect those who grasp music theory much better than I do.

I'm a bit confused here...

Modes, major & minor scales --- these are music theory questions...

If you weren't asking that, then I missed something???

Mike

I sent an ebay question to Jeff about this and asked him to clarify so we'll know for shure what He means. I'm watching that flute myself

I think they were intended to be music theory questions, it's just that the answers tended to go a bit over our heads at the moment Of course, I can truly only speak for myself, but I think that may be what Rick and Nokeys were experiencing too.

I for one am very interested in theory and appreciate the input, Mike. Granted when I play, I don't generally think about it much, but theory in its own setting apart from playing helps me visualize what's possible. Paradoxically, the math behind the music might be the source of its spiritual significance. It's not inappropriate to say that math is music--or that music is math. What we popularly call "music" is more likely the tension created between the order of math and the perceived freedom of creative expression.

My two cents worth of philosophy today.

Ok you guys.....way too serious for me, on a Friday, when I have to work very late, and during the holiday season, to boot.

Bring it up again in January, when I have less on my plate, please.

Actually, Rick, the concept of days of the week and months is based on mathematical calculations of ... ah, shut up, Paul. It's Friday!

Tis the season to be jolly......not frusterated.

You gotta gear way down for us dummies!! See I know what hole to cover or not cover to play in mode 1 or in mode 4 and couldn't understand how a 6 hole flute w/ standard tuning wouldn't be both. Thought maybe there are flutes made that are just tuned to mode 4 and if they were the tuning would not be standard. I mean hey, I'm just now working on how to read music! Happy Weekend!

Okay everybody, here is what I've learned.

NEVER POST THINGS ON EBAY WHEN YOU'RE REALLY TIRED!

You see, we got a puppy a few weeks back and I've been running on too little sleep. No excuse, but it's the best I've got.

Most flutes are mode 1/4. In fact, most of you probably own flutes in 1/4. The flute that started all this was posted as a mode 4 which was wrong for two reasons. First of all the flute in question is actually a mode 2/5. the second reason that it was wrong is that it should have been posted as a mode 1/4...not 4. To be clear...I was wrong and the flute in question is in the key of F, mode 2/5. This means that the flute will play F, A, A#, C, D, and F in mode 5. In mode 2 it will play F, G, A#, C, D, and F. There is a 1/2 step difference between the two.

Sorry for the confusion. Now if you'll excuse me- I'm off to walk the dog...AGAIN.

Mystery solved. Now, can anyone tell me the basis for and characteristics of this tuning? Does it sound non-NAF? What does it sound like?

If you type "mode 2 flute" into the YouTube search engine you won't believe what comes up as the first listing--at least when I did it. It does involve a flute, and even Christmas music, but even I don't feel quite comfortable posting the link, so if you're curious you'll have to search for yourself. I hope this isn't an example of mode 2 tuning.

Still looking for a sound clip or video of mode 2/5.

you got me curious... i'm assuming you got something other than
Andante & Rondo for 2 flutes & piano Op, 25 by A.F.Doppler

i didn't see anything related to xmas music. but i did see a lot of vids with people playing 2 flutes thru their noses.

This flute was being played through a much lower part of the anatomy.

Ok....very funny. Now, as I recall, although I don't have one, mode 5 is Celtic. I have no idea what mode 2 is.

Hmmm...Karnalis in one of his videos calls Mode 4 a Celtic scale.

Okay, I've done a little bit of legwork and come up with the following (based on the key of F):

Mode 1 - F, G#, A#, C, D#, F
Mode 2 - F, G, A#, C, D, F
Mode 4 - F, G#, A#, C#, D#, F
Mode 5 - F, A, A#, C, D, F

Interestingly, I can play all four modes on my JP Gomez F (2 and 5 very slowly, since I've never practiced this fingering). Mode 2 and 5, however, require cross fingering; and mode 5 requires a difficult half-holing to get the G. Mode 5 is basically what I have been calling the Gypsy scale, so I assume a Mode 5 flute will enable me to play this scale without cross fingering. Mode 2 is just a slightly flatter version (on the G and D notes) than the Mode 4, so I assume this is similar to the Celtic scale both Rick and Karnalis refer to--again, the difference is that it can be played on a Mode 2 flute without cross fingering.

Jeff's Leonard Lonecrow F for sale on eBay, therefore, plays both the Celtic and the Gypsy scale without cross fingering. Just lift one finger at a time as you would on a basic NAF scale on a Mode 1/4 flute. I suppose the basic NAF scale can still be played but would now require cross fingering and half-holing.

Please, please, someone tell me if I've got any of this wrong.

here's one of the sites i came across when i typed in mode 2 in google instead of youtube.
this might help or hurt depending on how you view things. the interesting part is at the bottom where it talks about visualizing the modes on a piano. mode 1 would start on Eb.

modes

Oh, cool. Thanks, Jim. It's getting late for me, so I'll have to digest it tomorrow, but it looks promising.

Great article. Now the fun begins in learning how to incorporate the "white keys" and accidentals (notes outside the scale), and in modulating from one mode to another. I've already spent a great deal of time exploring these relationships through trial and error in an attempt to hear what works and what doesn't--it's still more intuition for me than systematic knowledge, but I like learning about the "rules" and trying to figure out if I can "break" them. I'm really starting to notice big improvements in my technique and improvisational skills--thanks to at least an hour of playing daily for about a year and half. My biggest weakness right now, I think, is a poorly developed sense of rhythm. I find it really helpful to play while standing up and sort of dancing or swaying around the room, and paying attention to the natural metronome of my tongue attack. It's a shame I didn't learn these things 40 or 50 years ago, but at least now I can feel like a kid again--sometimes confused or mystified, but often giddy and joyous.

Feels good to be giddy and joyous, doesn't it? It's a new feeling for me, but one I don't intend to let go of!

Here's something that may help visualize things (I think I posted it here before...)

The "Modes Chart" has the notes laid out for all the pentatonic (5 notes + the octave) and diatonic (7 notes + the octave) modes as they would be played on a piano keyboard using just the black keys (pentatonic) or white keys (diatonic).

The "mode tool" is designed to be printed out then cut so that the notes on the modes can be lined up with the notes on the keyboard. For instance, if you want to know which notes a mode 1 & 4 flute in the key of D# would play, put the bottom note of the Mode 1 - Mode 4 (minor) chart on the D#, and then read the notes off the keyboard for the rest of the notes.

Mike

Wow Mike! . . . The mode tool is indeed a very helpful visual! . . . Many thanks!

I am sorry Rick but this is not correct.....
A major scale is your basic doe - rae - me... etc and is associated with a 6 or in my flutes case a 7 hole flute. For an F# the scale would be as follows....
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
Mode 4 relates to a kind of minor tuning associated with 5 hole flutes and the tuning for an f# minor in mode 4 would be....
F# A B D E F#
Mode 1 also relates to a 5 hole minor tuning and for the f# minor in mode 1 it would be....
F# A B C# E F#
Mode 1&4 is associated with the 6 hole flute which means you should be able to play both the mode 1 and mode 4 tuning on the flute.
Music can get pretty complex. I will try to post some Mode charts on a thread.

Most makers when they make a 5 hole flute use the minor mode 1 tuning like myself.
This should make things a bit easier to understand.
Okay here are the 3 common modes for the NAF......

Thanks Ed. I can follow that. (I think).

Just bumpin' this thread for Ashtar

If you want to get your theory straight, learn to distinguish between sharps and flats. This should in fact be:

Mode 1 : F Ab Bb C Eb F (the minor thirds are the first and fourth step in the scale)
Mode 2 : F G Bb C D F (the minor thirds are the second and fifth step in the scale)
Mode 4 : F Ab Bb Dd Eb F (the minor thirds are the first and third step in the scale)
Mode 5 : F A Bb C D F (different scale altogether; this is not a gypsy scale because that one still has minor thirds, this one has both minor and major thirds.

Btw, these scales are not the same as are listed on the Mode Tool that was posted by Mike.

Victor.

Actually, your mode 1 is different from what both Paul and Mike posted, and I think you are wrong: according to your own diagrams, what most every one makes is "mode 1 + 4". However, according to their explanations, it is indeed mode 1.

Victor.

Huh? Aren't A#/Bb, G#/Ab, and D#/Eb all the same note? And I've never heard of C# referred to as Db. Other than the labels, I don't see any difference between what I posted and you posted. Am I missing something?

Paul, yes, the sharp and flat are the same note, but they may be expressed in musical notation in a specific way, for clarity. I don't have much musical theory knowledge, so I am uncertain about the specifics of notation.

Yes, indeed a C# would still be a Db.

For some reason certain notes seem to be expressed more one way than the other, although NAF keys can be expressed either way.

Like say, I don't know a lot about that stuff, but those who have studied western musical theory and notation always seem to have trouble with the NAF, as they tend to relate things to that western notation.

Yes, starting with the whole of western musical theory.

Never mind that before the invention of the piano a C# and a Db were not the same frequency.

A scale that starts on C has a C, then a D with possibly an accidental, then an E with maybe an accidental, then an F with..... you get the idea.

So C-D-E-F#-G-A-B-C is a scale, as is C-D-E-F-G-A-Bb-C, but you can not write that C-D-E-F-G-A-A#-C because that is not a scale since it has two different varieties of A in it.

Et cetera.

Please read some book about elementary musical theory.

And you've never heard of Db? How about E# and B#? Cb? They all exist and have their legitimate use. Ever heard of double shart and double flat? Gx is a double sharp G, which looks the same as A, but is not. Et cetera.


Victor.

Well I have The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory ... guess I better read the next chapter, eh?

All I was suggesting was that I've never seen a flutemaker label a flute Db ... or E#, B#, Cb. However, among flutemakers I've seen A#/Bb, etc. used interchangeably.

Hey Paul, I need that book! Where can I get it????

Ah. I misread you there. Apologies.

Victor.

No problem ... I think I wasn't clear. Still, it's a (minor) curiosity to me why some makers sell an A# while others sell a Bb.

at that level it's just musical semantics. i have seen some flutes sold as E#, when it'd be so much easier to say F.